The Spot EP14: Ditch The Deck, Presentation Visuals, and More


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, Doug Davidoff, Juli Durante, Max Cohen and George B. Thomas break down their thoughts on the need to ditch the deck or not. They talk about presentation visuals, Seth Godin, and much,  much more.

Let's buckle up and get into the good stuff.

That Hit The Spot

This week's articles talk about sales decks, sucky decks, and how you can build better decks. For the first time ever on the show, we did not talk about these articles at all but, they are worth diving into if you use or create decks for your sales, marketing, or presentation needs.
Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready spot. Go we're back with another episode of the spot. And today we're gonna go into Well, it's actually a realm that I didn't ever know or think that we might actually talk about. But now it might be three or four episodes ago, Doug said something about ditch the deck, which I don't know if we're gonna talk about ditching it if we're gonna keep it if we're gonna save it. Doug's already got his finger in the air, which tells you that he's really there. Well,

Doug Davidoff 1:12
you said ditch the debt. You didn't say ditch the deck? You? Are you you said ditch the deck?

George Thomas 1:20
Did I say teach the deck? I thought we were talking about sales and you said ditch the deck? No, no, no, no. Julie,

Doug Davidoff 1:26
it was it was around video when we were talking about and you said get rid of the PowerPoint get rid of it is ditch the deck and I said you know we've talked about that.

George Thomas 1:34
We were because everyone's saying death in ours. We were talking about webinars, weren't we? That's it. Is it? Are you recalling this? were we talking about webinars? And I said ditch the deck? Was it really me this whole time I was thought it was Doug's fault that we're actually talking about this. It's my

Juli Durante 1:50
no it's all you George. Okay, well, yeah.

George Thomas 1:54
Well, so let's talk about this. Let's talk about this. And I think what we can do is we can talk about this at now the article,

Unknown Speaker 2:02
George, give the big news.

Unknown Speaker 2:06
Big news.

Unknown Speaker 2:07
What Well, people

George Thomas 2:07
can see the screen or hear the voice but we should probably say it should we should we should we breathe wind. Okay, we'll rewind.

Doug Davidoff 2:14
Everybody get right in here. Just bring it in. Bring it in just Max's back.

George Thomas 2:18
Let's do what's up. Oh, you just don't my back. It's good to be back. You just stole my thunder. I literally cannot rewind now. And welcome back, Matt.

Doug Davidoff 2:28
Yeah. I've been practicing reading spot go. I'm ready. Like when when they call the closer. I'm ready. Oh, I

Juli Durante 2:35
don't think this is the inbound debate.

George Thomas 2:37
Man. Doug is Doug is on. today. Doug is trying to steal my job. Two minutes within the episode. He's like, I'll come do ready spot go. Just let's let's we don't need George. George. Well, good thing you have all the editing powers. George, we could run in the gun. Oh, somebody can have those. That's right. I forgot.

Doug Davidoff 2:56
Somebody can never met. You controls the Edit. Never upset the person who controls the editing. George, I think you're doing a great job, please.

George Thomas 3:06
Yeah, Doug, I think on the video version of this, you will wear a crown for the entire episode, I will make that happen. No, I'm just kidding. Okay, so Max is back. I'm super excited. It has seemed like a lifetime. So we're gonna talk today, with four folks, we're going to talk about the deck, I think to the articles that we put in the show notes are really about sales decks. But I think that this knowing this crew, knowing this crew and the fact that within like 45 seconds, we realized it actually wasn't about sales, it was me and webinars and ditch the deck, we're probably going to talk about marketing deck sales decks, webinars, decks, professional speaking decks, we're just going to talk about decks in general. Today, and so let's go ahead and when I said that, Doug, because it is my fault. When I said that, why, why were you immediately like, I want to talk about that.

Doug Davidoff 3:59
Well, everybody, I mean, it's become the cool thing to say, I'm getting rid of the deck, I don't need a deck, I'm gonna get you know, and I will fully fully fully agree that 98.7% of deck suck. Right? But it's it's the same thing when people talk about you know, get rid of email, give it you know, the cold call is dead give it you know, it's a crappy content is dead, crappy decks are dead. And I actually think, you know, I'll give away my thunder right up front, right? If decks weren't effective, then we'd be listening to radio and not watching TV. We are visual creatures. We are visual creatures in a good deck. It brings visual that's my point. It should complement the topic but but here's I'm sure we're gonna have a fun time debating.

George Thomas 4:47
Here's the thing that I don't know if I agree with that right off the bat because when I watch Netflix, or I watch Hulu, nowhere do I see you know, a 12 point bullet point. Presentation being presented to me there's action there's suspense. That's like like go to court. But but but correlating, but even correlating a deck in general, to the reason we watch TV like it's a little bit of a stretch for me like I understand where you're going with that, but like, because this all started with webinars, right? And and me my fault webinars and ditch the deck, I said, and let me explain why I said this, because I think webinars need to become more like TV, and less like decks, which if you show a human or humans more often, if you are telling a good story, if you are having a little drama like we are on this episode already a little suspense, then then it's it's TV, but but there's no like we're not, by the way, we're not going to put a deck up on on the video version of this episode.

Doug Davidoff 5:54
So what's the greatest medium of storytelling, it's a children's book, to children's book. He words on a page image to drive it on. And if you think about the story that you're trying to tell if they're you know, we talk about storytelling on if every business strove to make their company's story, a children's book, tell it like it's a children's book, we'd all be better on.

George Thomas 6:21
Max. Max, you were just on paternity leave. Did you read any child books that are like you would recommend and you would be like, man, if they would just sell or market or like use this technology as a speaker? Like, what are we gonna

Max Cohen 6:38
move? So I love Harold in the purple CRAN. That's, that's one of my favorite by far. My daughter absolutely loves this one. It's actually an adaptation of The Office, but it's a children's book. But it's like, they're all like kids. But I'm just like, I'm right now I'm just imagining like a sales deck that is written in like, rhyme, like children's book. And

Juli Durante 7:03
something about that makes me think about Yeah, like, like pout, pout fish?

Unknown Speaker 7:07
Yeah, yeah. With the power face.

Unknown Speaker 7:09

Unknown Speaker 7:10
if you get hung up, sailed all over the place. You know, I mean, See?

George Thomas 7:15
See if

Unknown Speaker 7:16
that's a deep gut. Yeah,

George Thomas 7:18
we we might be gone somewhere. Because, like a cat in the hat style sales deck, and then having dug rapid

Unknown Speaker 7:27
with like, Oh, yeah. So

Juli Durante 7:29
I think it's an interesting like concept to think about, though, right? Like, um, children's books are very memorable. They're easy to understand whether they rhyme or not, they tell the full story. They're not too long thinking about what can you pare it back to and still have all those essential elements, I think is really interesting.

Doug Davidoff 7:51
Yeah. And let me ask you this, if I talk about a purple crown, and if you've ever seen Seth Godin, talk about purple cow, there's always a picture of a purple cow. Right? Because the image of the purple cow the image of the purple crayon, with the words in it, they they make each other better. That is the equivalent of a deck. Yeah. Seth Godin almost never speaks without a deck, and he probably has set the record for most slides per minute. And the fewest words in a slide. I mean, I've seen him do decks that don't have a single piece of text in there unless it's embedded in that image. And I don't think anyone would say that Seth Godin presentations are boring, or monotonous,

George Thomas 8:37
right? No, and and it's funny that you bring up Seth Godin, because Doug, and I think you were probably there, too, I've actually had the opportunity to see the typical Seth Godin 102 slides in like, 30 minutes, presentation. But then if you remember, back at one inbound, it was like, he was the opening keynote, before everything happened. And it was literally a table with like, a can and a puppet and like a thing and, and it was like literally three or four elements for the entire presentation, no slides, no presentation, guess what he did? Does he ditch the deck? I'm just gonna throw that out there, Seth Godin himself at inbound, ditch the deck.

Doug Davidoff 9:22
Okay, if you want to, if you want to ditch the deck and bring in other visual elements to complement what you're doing, I'm done with that.

Unknown Speaker 9:29
Okay, and I think

Doug Davidoff 9:30
I've seen, you know, I've seen lots of crappy decks. By the way, the best thing that Seth Godin does, is he takes what most people do in one slot, he makes it 15 slots. Um, I tell people, your goal should be two slides per minute. That's what the goal of a presentation should be two slides per minute. By the way, you begin to get a little bit more of a moving picture. I could go back and show you data on like webinars that we do, the number of slides that we have, and we can see when people begin to stop Paying attention. The key element to when people stop paying attention has little to do with the talk track. And we can track it right to time for moving to next slide. And so when you've got like the problem with seven bullets up, there is a it's boring, it's not visual. So it's words, which defeats the whole purpose of a deck. Right? And B, it sits there for seven minutes. And it's like, Okay, well, right. But if but if that if in that seven minutes, you went through 16 slides, and that's changing that keeps the eye focus, which is a large part of everything else. Well, so So what Seth did was he took those elements on a table, right, and he did things so that there was visual elements, it wasn't just self talking. And and for all the bad decks that I've seen, and, and, and somebody who was exceptional, being a talking head on something that's important that they can do a good job, I would say, if they had a really good deck, it would make them better. Because the number of times I've seen just ahead talking and teaching something, which is different than what we're doing here. This is a this is a conversation show. But but in a in a presentation or education type mode, where they're talk, talk, talk, talk talking, they end up getting, they end up going all over the place, and I'm trying to follow or track something. And I only have my ears to really track the elements of what they're saying to catch that. And so like just watching them, I get I get delivering the personality. And I'm not saying that it should be the deck and you talk over the deck that's like, you know, 1984 can I add my webinar? I guess we didn't have webinars in 1984, technically speaking, but

George Thomas 11:37
are they duck?

Unknown Speaker 11:39
Like Canada's come

George Thomas 11:40
together? You educated us on what they weren't back in 1984? What

Doug Davidoff 11:44
were they dug? They weren't webinars, they were seminars, with slides going overheads, we had overheads. And by the way, because they were overhead, here's the funny thing. Because when you were doing those things, you had to do overheads. And when you did that, you couldn't change it frequently. And so actually more thought got it went into developing whatever the quote unquote slide was on and and I guess, as I go back, again, there were really crappy overheads Don't get me wrong. But there were a lot more than had that like, like every slide had some type of cartoon on it, to emphasize in this because they realized that there was that importance, and all you had was this stupid white light, and it was horrible. So again, I agree with you. I think the problem is it's so easy to create a DAC and and then the speaker uses it as their speaker. In essence, they use the slide as their speaker notes. Right. And, and that is horrible. And, and, you know, and I'll say if you have a bullet up on on whether it's a sales presentation or webinar or anything, if you have a bullet, don't don't tell me the bullet. Talk about the bullet. Don't Don't tell me the bullet, because I can read the bullet. Yeah, right. Right.

Unknown Speaker 12:55
Those are

Doug Davidoff 12:57
the bad decks. But that's not why you should get rid of a deck. Do a good deck.

George Thomas 13:02
Yeah, yeah. I, first of all, let's just I want to put a stake in the ground.

Doug Davidoff 13:07
I'll be quiet,

George Thomas 13:08
visually. And no, you're fine visually. And if you're listening to this book, which by the way, if you're not watching these episodes, I just don't even know what's wrong with you. But if you're listening to this, maybe you're hiking up a mountain or something, you know, and you don't want to carry a TV but I want everybody to rewind back to what Julie said, because she again, she's great at this. She glossed right like when when she when she was talking about children's storybooks. And she said it does this it does this it does this it does it there are four major four things that Julie talked about in that section. Amazing, amazing already

Unknown Speaker 13:45
forgotten them.

George Thomas 13:46
Yeah, but no, I'm gonna I'm gonna you know what in editing, I'm saying right now in editing. I'm going to take that clip. I'm gonna put it right here.

Juli Durante 13:55
But it's an interesting like concept to think about though, right? Like, children's books are very memorable. They're easy to understand whether they rhyme or not. They tell the full story. They're not too long. Thinking about what can you pare it back to and still have all those essential elements, I think is really interesting.

George Thomas 14:17
Because you guys get your note paper and your pad your iPad down. Put these four things because it is truly amazing. As I was listening to her, I'm like, Oh, my God. Yes, yes. Because here's the thing, Doug, what I'll say and then I'm going to go to Max, because I want to get Max's thoughts. Like I know, he's, he's trying to get into the groove. It's like the first one back. He's like, Man, these guys talk. It's back and forth. It's like watching a tennis match. I'm gonna give him his moment in the sun here in a second. But Doug, here's where I get frustrated. And this is why I originally say and I talk out very much about ditching the deck. Which by the way, have you ever seen Gary Vee the Modern Marketing speaker use a deck anyway. Anyway, I digress. I digress. The reason I say ditch the deck is because a deck for most is a crutch. If your deck is a crutch, ditch the deck, if your deck is what, Julie and what you have just written down, because I added it in post editing, a storytelling tool, a utensil to make a better user experience, then don't listen to me talk about ditching the deck. Max, what is your thoughts on this conversation? Yeah, I mean,

Max Cohen 15:30
so my view on slide decks in general, I guess is it has multi facets, because I mean, it really kind of depends on the situation for me, right. So I'm a facilitator at HubSpot. I teach people HubSpot, I teach people about the company and strategy stuff, like all day, right. And there are just some things where a slide deck is great in some things where it's just absolutely terrible. The tact that I generally take is like I use it just to kind of move the conversation along and try to build knowledge upon what they previously learned, and really try to delineate, like the sections of information that I'm talking about. So we they know, when we moved on from one topic to the next, versus like overloading the screen with a bunch of information, right? It's more so just like a reminder of like, Hey, this is what we're discussing, because I try to make all of my sessions more of a discussion versus a lecture, right, because I hate giving lectures. I'll go and think back, you know, in the in the realm of using decks for sales, you know, I, I sold b2b, Apple products, right? I sold, you know, iPads, iPhones, Mac, computers, services, software, all that kind of stuff for four years to businesses of all kinds from like a dog trainer all the way up to like large biotech enterprise companies and schools and, and all that stuff. I never used a deck once in my life, right? But that was just because that was my style. I have no

Unknown Speaker 17:01
visual aid. I didn't use

Max Cohen 17:03
any visual and nothing. So you just

Doug Davidoff 17:04
talk. You had no phone or anything? No, no, like, I

Max Cohen 17:09
would show them certain things. I'm like, Well,

Doug Davidoff 17:11
okay. No, no, but what I'm saying is like, we had a brochure we had all the same thing.

Max Cohen 17:18
Yeah. There's, there's a place for it, there's absolutely a place for it. Because there'd be plenty of times where if I was teaching someone something like, Hey, this is how mobile device management works. I would use a deck, but not if I was on like a sales call. But that's just that was just me, that was just me.

Doug Davidoff 17:37
But hold on, we're going off the point of what the deck is, we're now defining the deck is a PowerPoint slideshow of X, Y or Z. The point of why I'm saying you don't ditch the deck is visual matters, having a visual component matters. And again, going back to that this is George's fault, because we were talking about webinars, right? is having a visual element matters, right? I don't know, a salesperson that sells in person. And I By the way, I'm not suggesting that as a salesperson, you go in and you say, Okay, I'm gonna whip my computer out. Here's the screen, I'm going to walk through a deck. No, you have materials, you have samples, you have brochures, you have sales collateral, right? Those are all visual elements. Those are all kinesthetic elements. They are the equivalent on a deck. Yeah, and I'm agree technically, again,

Max Cohen 18:25
I'm agreeing I'm agreeing with you. That's the thing.

Unknown Speaker 18:28
I don't know.

Max Cohen 18:29
I don't think we should ditch the deck, right? Because the other thing is that I think there's gonna be plenty of people out there that want to see a deck when they're being sold to they want the information neatly presented. And again, I'm, I'm talking about PowerPoint presentations, right. But yeah, visual aids. 100%. Absolutely, super important. And I've definitely used them in the past, I don't think the deck should go away. What I don't think salespeople should do is rely on it as a crutch, right? Because I go and I watch sales calls on Gong all the time. And I see plenty of folks just bringing up a generic slide deck, and kind of reading through it and using all these, you know, just sales platitudes. And, you know, just, you know, Baba, blah, blah, blah. And I can just tell that that person on the other end is totally checked out. Right. So but again, there's some people who love to receive information that way. So, for me, it really just depends on the situation. And you got to be adaptable. And maybe your client does want to receive information that way. Maybe they don't, but you should be prepared to do it either way. So I don't think we should kill the deck

Unknown Speaker 19:41
by any stretch.

Doug Davidoff 19:42
I mean, I just asked you a question real quick because I'm the guy back in the 1990s. You know, the definition of a salesperson was what someone who could read a brochure upside down faster than you could read it right sign up.

Unknown Speaker 19:53
Oh my gosh,

Doug Davidoff 19:54
okay, so get it George. We were on opposite sides of the table for the first time I get and I get I get it. I

Juli Durante 19:59
thought I was the You'll remember seeing people in real life at a table.

George Thomas 20:02
Yeah, there's that too. There's that too. But I want to say something as far as Max, what you were talking about, I wouldn't just say sales, by the way, because because by a show of hands, how many people have been an event, and the PowerPoint or the slide projector goes down, and the speaker cannot move forward by show of hands, anybody, we've all seen that speaker, because that presentation is a crutch. They don't know the story well enough to tell it without the graphics that they put in place to cue their own brain. Doug, if you can read a brochure upside down, it's because you're not reading it upside down, you know, the junk backwards and forwards. Now, here, I want to throw this out there too, because no,

Doug Davidoff 20:44
no, actually, you don't know. No, actually, you're literally reading it upside down. Having having done that I can vouch for the fact that no, we didn't know we didn't know it, it's the same thing of use of reading bullet points. It's a good old sales joke anyways, but

George Thomas 20:57
that's that's talent, I cannot read up. So

Doug Davidoff 20:59
I'll go on with it. Although

George Thomas 21:01
the other day, Julie was telling me to read backwards, which was a whole another new trick that I learned too. But but here's, here's the thing, I want to talk about something because I got to get Julie into this, I want to talk about something that blew my mind. Because we're just talking about decks in general at this point. When I talk about a deck, historically, there was really only one type of deck for me, and it was as a speaker, or as a presenter, digitally or in person, here are the best practices to design a deck that goes with. And I'm not even going to tell you that I haven't used your two minute mathematical calculation to know exactly how many slides I should have for a 45 minute presentation. been there done that, right. But I watched Julie create a deck for a client. And it blew my mind almost paralyzed me. Because I realized there's actually more than one type of deck. And so what I'd like Julie to kind of talk about it, because we've talked about sales decks, we've talked about, you know, presentation deck speaker decks, this idea of what a marketer can do a type of deck that you can build an mentality or a mindset of like providing, usually you don't create a deck to hand it off to somebody other than, hey, text, this code, and you can download my slides, which, by the way, I'm useful, but it's a great lead gen opportunity, because nobody remembers really what was supposed to go with the slides anyway. But But Julie, talk for a minute about a presentation deck from a marketing or information delivery standpoint, because for me, that was another piece that was just like, mind blowing, to start to think about.

Juli Durante 22:52
Yeah, so in this case, the use case is really a reporting deck or a finding deck and analysis deck, something like that. And I'm gonna sound like Doug, when I say this, but there's a difference between reporting and analysis. And we kind of use them I think, as marketers interchangeably, but to me reporting is delivering numbers. analysis is explaining why those numbers matter. And I've seen a lot of reports, reporting in documents index, etc, etc, that lists a whole bunch of numbers, and we start to look at them like, Oh, your organic search traffic was up 20% month over month. That's a great data point. Why does it matter? Is it a trend? Is it better performance? Is it this? Or is it that what are we going to do with it? A lot of times from my perspective, and for folks, that marketing agency is reporting and analysis is a deliverable. It's something that just like writing a blog post, building a workflow, we have to hand something over to a client that we know we did our jobs, and they know we did our jobs. And in those cases, I will often use a slide deck to deliver a pretty hefty report, because I don't want to do it in a document. And I find that trying to use screenshots and things like that in a document is much more difficult than in Google Slides or PowerPoint or something like that. So we're using a slide format, and we're ultimately presenting the information. But the idea in this case isn't to fly through a ton of slides really quickly. But to give them something that they can go back and read later, we can have conversations with in future months, they can pass to their boss. So my format for something like that is actually a few slides that present a bit of an executive summary, which is where we have, you know, really big picture findings and recommendations, but still written out in some sentences, short sentences, bolding content, things like that, but still sentences because you have to remember there's going to be some asynchronous consumption of this and then breaking out those in future sections in a really deep way. So it's not unusual for me to create one of these decks and have like six slides with paragraphs of information about organic search traffic. And the point of the deck isn't for me to present those slides in that one little screenshot, the point of the deck is for the client to have somewhere to come back to to get that information. But for me to be able to speak to it generally, and then have the deep link to a Google Analytics report or to a HubSpot report or somewhere else that I can bring up and engage with and talk through on the call. And I had a team member who was working on one of these recently. And she did actually really good job breaking out bullet points from the deeper analysis and presenting it in that way. But really, what she discovered in the process was that the analysis is about the process more than it is the slides, right? You become competent in telling that data story to the client, because you've put in all the time to write the sentences and the paragraphs. And then you probably don't even look at it right. You just pop open that HubSpot report that sources report or whatever it is you're talking through at that point. And they'll come back to it later. Or in an agency setting. If we're bringing someone else in to help with the account. If we have a transition. Everything is documented. So it's a deck, but it's not a deck.

George Thomas 26:19
Yeah. And so the reason I wanted Julie to bring that up is because a couple reasons. One, I want everybody listening. And sitting on this podcast, if we're not thinking of like, it could be multiple things, which leads me to when you have to do something. And your first thought is I need a deck. Do you? Do you? Is it ditch the deck? Because you don't? Or is it I need this kind of deck? Or I need this other kind of deck? What's the goal? What's the job that you need that visual to do? It's funny because I keep just talking about a deck. But Doug the whole time, you've been talking, you've mentioned brochures, you've mentioned pens, paper Barbie, like No, you didn't mention any of those other like last things, but like you just go to collateral in general. Like your your mind. That's a different episode. Your mind goes to just sales collateral sales collateral, when when I am like, Oh, this is a deck. And so I want people to go because here's the thing, hey, I need you to teach somebody about this. Oh, gotta go build a deck. I want you to go speak about this, oh, I better build a deck that really like isn't there some steps in there like analysis like Julissa? Isn't there some steps in between that, to even see if you do need it, and if you do need it, what it's supposed to do. The other thing is, I just want to Julie to wax poetic on reporting and analysis. And the fact that you can deliver a document that is like, I kid you not, ladies and gentlemen, this deck was ridiculous. Like, I I just I didn't even know what to do with myself, it was just so juicy. And it was amazing. And it was like nothing I had ever seen before. From the standpoint of now I can hand this to you. And it actually makes sense, which, from a speaker standpoint, should there be the deck that you use when you're presenting on stage? And then there's a different deck that is actually useful that they're downloading, and it's not like, you see what I'm saying here?

Doug Davidoff 28:29
The point I want to make a couple of points here because I brought up the sales collateral and things like that, because it happened to be a situation I apparently misunderstood. What Max was saying when he said I didn't, you know, I didn't use a deck. I didn't use anything. And I'm like, Well, wait a second, you're using the equivalency of a deck. On my point about a deck in which is a different aspect of of deck meeting than what Julie talked about. I agree with everything that Julie said is that there's a visual element. And and not using a good deck means you don't have the visual element. And and I'm sorry, looking at somebody who's just talking to me on a screen. Yeah, there's a bit you know, hey, it's nice to see them at first and I know who they are. But at some point that that's not dynamic. And and you know, Max, you said know who your customer is, because some of them want it. Some of them don't. I'm actually going to go out on a limb. I don't have the I don't have any data right now. But I'm going to find some on this. I want to channel it if anyone has that out there that shows recall between a presentation given that's just someone talking into a camera, and the same presentation given with a good visual compliment to that. And 48 hours later, one week later, two weeks later, what's the retention? Cuz I'll bet the retention is going to be higher with that visual element, because we're using more of the brain. Now George, here's where I'll agree with you, where you should ditch the deck. Do not think that Chris Rock or Jerry Seinfeld should bring a deck, which is why Gary Vee doesn't use a deck because Gary V's not in the education business Gary V's in the entertainment business. And here's the last guy by the way, the product

George Thomas 30:16
by the way, he stole my fire. By the way, I'm just going to let you know I was going to exit get like who's your favorite comedian? Go ahead and send me the deck. Now I can't even do that.

Doug Davidoff 30:27
Right. But by the way, Chris Rock, Jerry Seinfeld, Gary Vee, they're the product. The The other thing that we have to get at because we've said 100 times don't use it as a crutch. And I agree with you don't use it as your first crush, you need to go through the process, develop a good deck. But let's be honest, the delivery of this type of communication today, by definition, most of the people who do this are going to be average at doing it. And they've got other things to do. You know, like, we're in this business, we're in the business of communicating and it's a core core part of our craft. Right? And and, yes, we can do that. But you know what, most people aren't going to get to that level. That's not what they do, or for the frequency that they do something. You know what a deck is a great crutch. If you've got a good deck, I speak better when I have a deck because by the way, you know what, when I don't have a deck, all go off on a tangent because all of a sudden, I'll be talking and I'll see somebody kind of have a reaction to something that will trigger this. And before I know what I'm talking about something that had nothing to do with my topic. But But I'll tell you, there's not like, if you're a great agency, what's the first thing you do you storyboard? Right? You storyboard, you let that story unfold? Right? All I'm saying is bring that visual element, you can call whatever the hell you want. But don't lose the visual element, because so many people do it badly. That's my only point.

George Thomas 31:56
All right, so as we close out here, which by the way, the fact that you go off on tangents stuck is super surprising to me, I would have had no clue that that was actually a thing that happened. Maybe I'm kidding. But as we close out this episode, as we close out this episode, I love you, Doug. I really want each one of us to give one actionable tip of if you're going to create a deck and let's leave this for kind of sales, education presentation type deck. If you're going to create a deck, what's one tip that you would say to somebody as they go to create that deck or think about creating that deck? Max, let's have you go first. Oh, actually, no, no. Shame on me. Ladies, first, let's have Julie go first, then Max, Doug, and then I'll close out the show.

Juli Durante 32:49
Okay, well, I don't need to go first. But I will take it. Um, my number one tip would be make sure you're able to define the beginning, middle and end of your story.

Max Cohen 33:00
I'm big one for me. And this this is this is going out to any zoom educators out there. I'm sure a more creative person than I would be able to figure out how to deploy this into some sort of sales scenario too. But like, we're in the world of delivering our presentations via zoom now, right? Don't sleep on the annotation features, and building in some interactivity to your slide deck. So for example, building slides where you pose a question and people type the answer onto the screen, or circle yes or no for a multiple choice question or some other curve, more creative way of making it like visually interactive for people. So you can draw them in, make sure they're fully engaged in paying attention and hopefully retaining some more from now when they get to interact versus just listen and look,

Doug Davidoff 33:55
when you got a presentation. Whatever it is,

George Thomas 33:58
throw, throw all your ideas into it, and then storyboard it and you should end up cutting about half of what you have out there. And then take a look at every piece of text and turn text individually. Yeah, I'm gonna piggyback on that and I'm going to say keep it simple. You do not have to be a design master and throw all 10 bazillion colors and fonts onto a slide it needs to be really quiet really clean. Design needs to be the salt and pepper or the condiment to the meal. The actual story like Julie said the knowledge the education that needs to be the burger, the steak the hero. Hey, this has been a great episode I always love man, this thing went 10 bazillion ways from Sunday but if you are digging the podcast, make sure you give us a favorite or a thumbs up or whatever platform you're watching or listening to it on. Make sure you hit up now that essentially He is back at max Jacob Cohen on the Twitter's say thanks for being back max. Make sure you hit up real Julie D at Doug Davidoff and of course I'm at George B. Thomas, make sure you are focusing on if you need a presentation deck. If you do, make sure you follow some best practices and do your research. And by the way, first episode ever got two articles. Links are in the show notes. We didn't mention either of them, but go check them out because they actually do talk about things that we've talked about during this episode. And hey, remember to use the hashtag hashtag sprocket talk hashtag the spot podcast and we will see you in the next episode.