The Spot EP2: The Future of Content Marketing & Automating Your Process


Ready, Spot, Go!

This week the team gets right into it! The jokes start flying about plants, virtual backgrounds, and much more. Make sure you are watching the episode to see exactly what they are talking about.

That Hit The Spot

This week we decide to keep the That Hit The Spot section down to a single article. A boy, are we glad we did. Why?

Because we had a lot to say about the future of content marketing.

Read the article now

What was your favorite part of The Spot? Let us know.

In The Spot Light

In this section, I try to have a conversation points:

  • Why should companies be focused on automating their process?
  • What should be automated first?
  • What is one way to automate the process?
    • Sales
    • Marketing
    • Service
  • `Are there any parts of the process that should not be automated?

Listen in to see how that went down! 😎

On The Spot

Are you ready for INBOUND 2020? It's going to be fun.


Check out all the INBOUND SPEAK interviews we have been doing.

Until We Spot Again

Final words form the team.

Hit any of us up on the Twitters.

Dive right into the deep end and ask to be added to our  “The Spot” Slack channel.

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast

Until next time, remember to keep learning, keep growing, and of course, keep doing some amazing HubSpotting.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie, Doug, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Alright, it's ready spot go. And I got to just say from the very beginning here, Julie, you have to have today. The number one background out of all of us. It's green. It's lush. It's beautiful, man. What?

Doug Davidoff 0:57
Monkey Come on. She's outside. You're not allowed to be outside these days,

Juli Durante 1:02
I take no responsibility for this. My mother is a tremendous grower of plants. And I'm sure if anyone's interested in some spider plant babies, they'll mail them to you.

Doug Davidoff 1:12
They're tremendous grower of plants.

George Thomas 1:14
I love that.

Doug Davidoff 1:16
I'm saying you can, I'm just saying that that is can be open to interpretation, which

George Thomas 1:20
are so many ways, so many ways that we could go with that conversation. I'm just gonna say

Doug Davidoff 1:25
I'm a deviant in the group, Julie. Remember, that's why I was brought here.

Juli Durante 1:28
Well, well, for that line of thinking, Doug, I might put you in touch with my dad.

George Thomas 1:32
There you go. Now Now what I will say is if you're listening to this episode, what are you doing, you should be watching because then you could see the background and you could see all the things that we're laughing about right now and the puns that we could be saying, but let's go ahead and dive into our first section today guys, I'm so excited because he that hit the spot. This week. We're talking about marketing and we are going to talk about the future of content. Content Marketing. Julie, kick us off on this conversation? Well, yeah.

Juli Durante 2:05
Cool. So this is a cool article, and I found it in a medium publication called escape motivation. It's written by Jason McBride. It's called the future of content marketing is already here. And the subtitle was, if you're still cranking out 500, word, blog posts you're already behind. And I loved the title and subtitle. And that's what made me click through on this one, because I have recently been thinking about 500, word blog posts, 600 word blog posts, thousand word blog posts, and are they really providing value to readers? Are they doing what we need to do for Google, etc, etc. as I was reading through this article, I also started feeling like, hey, there's some great points here. Right? One of the points is, Google is showing you more and more content to keep you on Google, right to continue searching to do secondary and follow up searches, related keywords, richer search pages, all of those things we know are happening and a whole lot can happen before someone even clicks through it. They don't need to click through any more to get their question answered a lot of the time. There's also this idea that top performing posts are 2000 words or more long. And I know that's something that HubSpot has also studied in their own top performing content and confirmed. There's this idea that people are unpublishing shorter content from the past that hasn't performed well. And they're seeing other pages perform better because of this. So all of this is starting to go down a road that I'm excited about. And I'm thinking like, yeah, there's something really cool happening here. I like this direction. And then we got to this point of like, is email the new blog, and you shouldn't be really blogging at all. And there's this different direction, there's this different road to go down. And this ties in, like content marketing shouldn't be dependent on Google to perform well and bring you traffic and generate leads. And that's where I kind of got lost in this mix. Because as much as we want to say 800 word blog posts aren't effective, and they do Don't help you rank and all of these things. I have so many clients who over the years have ranked for short blog posts 200 word things, things you would never expect things that we can always improve on. And yeah, I think writing more and better content is really good. I think there's a place for email, I have a few email newsletters I receive on a weekly basis that I get excited to see in my inbox, haven't moved them from my promotions tab in Gmail, but I do look out for them. And I do save them and read them. I don't often click through on any content in them. But what I liked about this was let's question the status quo. And I don't think you take any of this as Bible. But I think we can interpret some of this and learn some lessons and say, Okay, well, maybe I do need to rethink my email strategy. Maybe the people who are on my email list need dedicated content that is email specific, and I don't care about getting them to click through I just want them to understand this and it's like an exclusive blog post for them. email lists that they just get in their email. Like there are angles for this for marketing that I like. But I thought the overall approach of the posts didn't quite hit for me, but it got me thinking and that's why it hits.

George Thomas 5:13
So much to say here. Now, here's the thing. I'm just gonna go first cuz I know you're chomping at the bit like, I

Doug Davidoff 5:19
know head is hurting right

George Thomas 5:21
now. I know, I know there. Oh, there's so so I'm gonna go first, and I'm gonna get

Doug Davidoff 5:25
my hat on because there's like steam and stuff coming.

Juli Durante 5:28
Yeah, there's some controversial stuff in this. There's a lot I did not agree with. But I liked the experience of reading it.

George Thomas 5:35
Yeah, I would say everybody needs to read this because there's gonna be places that you laugh. There's going to be places that you cry. There's going to be places that you learn things. I will say there's this there's this little line here. The best performing blog content is now skyscraper post or Cornerstone post, which by the way, since your HubSpot users, that's pillar pages 2000 to 10,000 words long, which some of you might be listening to this or watching this going. But I got stuff to do. Like that's a lot of words, which it is. But still, that's also a lot of value. And I go back to man, if you can provide a ton of value, there's gonna be a lot of reward at the other end of this. But the piece that I really want to tie into Julie, is the whole email portion of this because his email the new blog, I don't necessarily know if it's the new blog, but I will tell you, there's been something going around in my mind about email, and email subscription, like newsletter type thing of like a more intimate platform, a place where you can talk about things that you maybe can't talk about online, because there's a direct reply, that somebody can actually say, Hey, I have a problem with that, or Yes, that's an issue where if it's a blog, and if you were doing comments, there'd be no way that you'd get that engagement. So there's something interesting there about the email and a bit blog mentality to your email newsletter. Not saying I agree with what they're saying, but there's something there. I'm just gonna be quiet because Doug, I don't think you can take it anymore.

Juli Durante 7:11
I can't wait.

Doug Davidoff 7:14
This is why I don't like marketers.

Juli Durante 7:18
Aha. So

Doug Davidoff 7:21
first off, why why is there continue to be an obsession with word count? Seth Godin is doing pretty well with 100 word blog posts. thousand word blog posts do things. I mean it. It here's why. Here's why this is a big deal, right? Because because of the Google con, right, Google con you to believe that organic search was free and owned and what they what they fail to actually communicate is search traffic is rented traffic. And it's paid. I had a guy on our podcast on another podcast that I do. He runs a technical SEO shop, he did SEO for a wayfair. And he's like, you know, we we used to do all this, you know, we used to have this big budget for paid and I came in, I started doing search, and we saved all this money from paid. We had a 40 person, SEO department and it was free and I said, Wait, hold on free. You had 40 people. Um, so I think the other thing that happened and I'm gonna blame HubSpot, I'm blaming HubSpot for this one. We forgot that a blog is designed to educate what happened was there was this correlation that blogs generated leads and now all we look at blogs about his capture. I actually thought CTAs might I've been blogging since 2005. I was blogging before HubSpot. Okay. And and when this whole CTA thing first came out, I'm like, No, that's that's, this is about my audience that's paying attention to me. I'm telling you, the biggest return I get on my blog is after first action, right and you You have all these people that are playing all these games, to to try to out guest search and I think it was Megan, megan kelly Anderson from from HubSpot, VP marketing, she talked about how SEO had changed. SEO is no longer the little person's game, right? It's it's all on there. Hey, it was great while you had it. There are so many ways that if you take a look at the time, energy and effort that people put into to create search traffic. Now, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with search traffic. But but that's, like, do that when that's the closest, you know, the fastest way between two points. There's lots of ways to capture audience there's lots of ways to generate audience. And here's what it comes down to. But by the way that data from HubSpot is so flawed, I can't even begin to talk about it because there's all kinds of selection bias. If you take a look at the companies that are getting the search traffic, they've done 100 things before they did their 10,000 word post, but here's what it comes down into my world. quality content beats crappy content every day of the week. I don't care how long it is. I don't care how short it is the right length for anything, email, blog, whatever is however many words it needs to be not one word longer, not one word shorter. And damn right, we need to rethink our email. And we need to think our blog, and if anything ever, because we stopped creating content for the customer, and we started creating content for ourselves. So if you're looking at this blog post through the frame that it is, which is how does content solve for you, then yeah, your content is going to suck, focus on the experience of your customer. There's a law called good arts law. It says the moment you take a good measurement, and you turn it into the objective, it stops being a good measurement. search traffic is a byproduct of good content. Right? It is not the focus of good content, and we are auto tuning the crap out of ourselves, making us irrelevant, driving everybody to Amazon because they're easier. They're faster. So So what and this Article while it's brilliantly written, and everyone should read it. This is the debate that causes real business people to hate marketers.

George Thomas 11:08
So we can just close up shop now that should just be the show. And by the way, here's the thing. If you are listening to this, I swear by all that is holy, you should go and you should click up wherever you're from, go to the sprocket talk comm go to this episode, just to watch. Max Cohen's Express, David, preachy It was like a come to Jesus moment, in this little left square on my screen. I had to walk away. I was laughing so hard, you have to watch it, Max. Like, because you had a visceral response. When Doug was talking, just throw down like what was going through your mind at that point?

Max Cohen 11:48
Well, I think me and Doug were probably separated at birth, given the way that we think about this stuff that is, I was so happy hearing everything I heard then like, here's the way that I always kind of thought about content right? Because I cut my teeth learning this stuff with small to medium businesses, often with marketers who had no idea what search engine optimization was, or the tactical role that bought blogging played, or just like, what content is in general, right? Like content was always the big elephant in the room that no one ever wanted to talk about. Because it's by far the hardest part of this entire inbound thing. Right? And, you know, I can't I'm, I'm having stressful flashbacks to all the conversations that I've had with marketers in the past about saying like, Oh, well, this this keyword that we're trying to target doesn't have enough views. Or this, you know, this this topic that we're going after, doesn't like align with what our business got, and over analyzing everything, how many words should it be, what sort of images we should use, and all this technical bs? that at the end of the day, it had no difference in making it so when a human being got the eyeballs on the world And wrap their heads around the ideas and consumed the content. It had, it did nothing to add value to that experience, right? Like, I have always been in the school of thought. And again, this is not based on me doing a ton of like deep research or the algorithms or like anything like that. But what I've kind of noticed is like, if you think of any website that you love going to constantly you go there because it has good content, you don't go there because there's 800 or 10,000 word blog posts, you don't go there because they have an excellent keyword strategy. You go there because there's content that you can get there that you can't get anywhere else. Right. And this is something that I tried to kind of preach to my customers as much as I could, because really, you got to think about what the definition of good content actually is, right? It's not the format. It's not the way it's delivered. It's does it get someone closer to achieving some sort of goal that they have, or overcoming some sort of challenge that they have? right because that's why we use search engine search engines in the first place. Right, we have somewhere we want to be, or something that's getting in the way. And that's true from like the micro or the macro, right? micro example. I want to find pizza near me, right? That's it. That's a goal. You could even call it a challenge if you're hungry, right? Something more macro. Like, why is my sales team not hitting its quota in x industry, right, something more specific, you always have some sort of goal or challenge when you use a search engine. But when you go to consume that piece of content, if it doesn't get closer to helping you achieve it, or overcome the challenge, congrats, you've created clickbait and it doesn't matter that X amount of people saw the article, you didn't change any hearts and minds or make that person feel more favorable or even see you as a thought leader. If the content wasn't good, and it did that mechanical thing in their brain, right. So, you know, I've always definitely been in the school of thought where it's like, Listen, before you try to over engineer this whole search engine optimization thing. You have to think critically about who your buyer personas are, what their goals and challenges are, because that dictates what they're looking for. And that dictates what's going to make your content good. Right? And don't overcomplicate it get good at creating content first, regardless of the format that's kind of always waving.

Doug Davidoff 15:14
Do you know the difference between legacy Google and LinkedIn is now LinkedIn algorithm is designed to solve for A marketers action. Google's algorithm and the brilliance of Google's traditional algorithm was, it was designed to replicate how someone thinks, who has a question or has a need, it was specifically not designed for, for use by marketer. So that's where you in many ways, the more you get educated on SEO, I think the dumber you get sometimes because you start trying to out think the algorithm when that's not what the algorithm is geared for now, you notice I said legacy Google because what they're beginning to do is it's increasingly focusing on monetization. And not like the stuff that Google keeps on page. A lot of the reasons they keep it on pages because they give a better experience. They're actually just answering the question. But too much of the other stuff is because it's, you know, because there's this whole Google tax engine that's been driven around it. And this whole move to intent data, rather than, like the beauty of Google was you have a question? And you'd be surprised by what you saw. And that happens less and less, because too much of what's driving everything is touching to that monetization. Again, it's good slot work. And that's why LinkedIn is a miserable experience.

Juli Durante 16:37
maximizing the Great, so you said two things. You said, content is so hard at the beginning. And then you said, content shouldn't be complicated. And my whole thought is content shouldn't be hard. My favorite thing is when a client writes a blog post, and they write a blog post and they say, Hey, I wrote this. This is how we think can dislike Do well. And I think absolutely right, I would rather have this piece of content that you wrote and talks about solving this problem or this rant that you have Remington, the CEO of impulse creative, wrote one this week and sent it to me just for like a brain check. And I said, Yeah, this is great. We probably want to add a little bit more here and here. Because it's important information to someone who's reading it. It's a next step type of thing. What should I do now that you shared this information with me? But it was such this, like, this is what I have to share. And anytime someone does that, let's share it. And if it's something we feel like should be competitive on a search engine results page, build that later. But like get the message out there because that's what resonates with people. And I think Doug, as miserable as the LinkedIn experience is and I agree that the LinkedIn experience is not my favorite. You see these viral type LinkedIn posts. I hate that word. Please watch the video. So you can see my face as I say these things with skepticism and disgust. But like those viral LinkedIn posts that are just like one line at a time that people are talking about whatever this feeling they have, do well, because they are that empathetic feeling of Oh, yeah, I've been there. I felt this. And that's what blondes aren't doing today.

Doug Davidoff 18:24
No, I don't agree with that. I think what's happened is, I mean, the the LinkedIn algorithm says, Don't put the link in in the copy, right? So no one puts the link in the copy and everyone does two lines skips three lines so that you have to click More to come in that that that's what the game is. And so I don't mean that no one makes it empathetic. But it begins to be this whole game and what we're auto tuning our takes, right and how does not having the link in the in the post? How does How is that beneficial to the reader You're referring to something Why do I have to open the comment to see what you're talking about?

Juli Durante 19:05
Right. So that Peeves me and I agree with that. But I'm thinking more of I think is more people actually sharing something on LinkedIn. That's not a link, like using LinkedIn as a microblog. Oh gosh, I'm such a 2010 word. Um,

Doug Davidoff 19:19
but you get it. But again, that like, so my point is that LinkedIn algorithm is not smart enough to be able to tell the difference. And Google's is like, you can't clickbait Google like you could afford. I mean, you can if you're really, but that's what I'm saying. Like you say, You're penalized when the length matters. Because that, again, that algorithm is solving for an action because what is LinkedIn trying to do? They're trying to drive an advertisement.

George Thomas 19:43
So I mean, I mean, let's just be honest, and we all know this thing. Marketers ruin everything. That's why you can't have the link in the description. Well, we need more salespeople we find something. We ride the crap out of it. No, marketers, man, go. This sucks because we're not being human well being Marketing right? We're being marketers. And so we all know the problem and here's the other thing as you guys are talking like, I had to start laughing because I know that some of the best things that I have posted that that just like went crazy. When before I hit the publish button I thought it was the dumbest crap ever. Like I'm like, I don't nobody's gonna like this ever and then all sudden everybody like that thing. So it was you

Doug Davidoff 20:26
know what, I'm not gonna

I'm not gonna blame the marketer because I'm gonna say don't hate the player hate the game. Right? Because in fairness, that's the game that they're now supposed to play. We We live in an echo chamber where if I upvote you if I thumbs up you if I like you then that feeds that feeds that feeds we've got all this dopamine going. And here's the thing when someone brings a take an insight that's not comfortable. You just like that. Right? But the stuff that actually has impact doesn't show Because it's like I don't read something. Oh, wait, oh, holy Wait, wait, like I'm sure a lot of people interpret it that I don't like the post that that was shared today. Right. I think it's a great post. I think everyone should read it. But the way the game is set up is that my reaction to that post hurts that post. And so we create less of it and less of it and less of it. And by the way, while we do that, and we autotune our small and mid market businesses, we all go into the deadly middle and Amazon and Facebook and Google and Microsoft, just continue to eat, eat and we're like, oh, I don't understand this isn't fair.

George Thomas 21:41
I you know, it's not fair. I shouldn't have a T pain sound effect for like, The dog says, auto tune and just have have something. That's what should be happening right now on the show. We'll get there. We'll get there.

Juli Durante 21:54
How about how about, we create an autotune dog's name auto tune. And then when you episode, you can play that instead of when he says auto tune.

Doug Davidoff 22:07
That's very meta.

Juli Durante 22:09
And I don't even that's why I love marketers.

Doug Davidoff 22:11
That's why I love marketers, they

George Thomas 22:13
were already weren't, hey, we're already paying. So here's the thing, let's move on from this article because this article has been amazing. And again, everybody, just check out the show notes. Make sure you hit that link. Make sure you read the article. And most importantly, make sure you let us know your thoughts, you know, ours, obviously. But guys, I want to go into a section called in the spotlight, and I want to talk about automating your process. And the reason I want to bring this up is because most times when we think about automating a process, we think of it from one standpoint marketing automation or Sales Automation. I don't even know if I've heard Service Automation. But when you think about being able to do things faster, what is your take, why should companies be focusing on on automating process In the first place, or should they,

Max Cohen 23:05
um, I've always been in the school of thought of, because it's very easy, I think to fall into this trap of just because you can automate it doesn't mean you should automate it. Right? I think there's like, a lot of misconceptions around automation, especially for like anyone who's new to it and hasn't really had experience with what marketing automation Sales Automation Service Automation, like actually means. They take a lot of the the pains that their business has, and they you know, buy a piece of software or buy a product and just kind of assume that they can automate everything or that they should automate it just because they have the option to. So I think for me, it's always just like, think critically about what needs to be automated and if something does need to continue to happen manually, just just be thoughtful about how it does. If I were to give any general thoughts around it.

Doug Davidoff 23:58
So I think when you Look at automation. And I don't think it matters whether you're talking about sales, marketing, service, finance, human resources, Mario Brothers, whatever the case may be, if you there's kind of three realms of what of what is called in the design world, the knowledge funnel that at the top is what mysteries, these are the one off things. And anytime you do something for the first time, it's a mystery. Those are the things you clearly don't automate, right? You can't automate them because you don't know what's going on algorithms. By the way, that's what automation is. Automation is an algorithm. Algorithms aren't always true. It is ABC, ABC, ABC, and what's in the middle between mysteries and algorithms. And this is where automation screws, everybody, our heuristics. heuristics are those things that are generally true. We often think they're always true. Like someone says to me, all you got to do is get me in front of somebody, and I'll be able to close them. That's our only problem. We just need more leads because of it. Get in front of them, I closed them. Because I remember the last five people that I closed. And I got in front of them and I closed them. And I don't remember the 62 other people that I got in front of that I didn't close, right? It's a heuristic, it's generally true. And and when we automate heuristics, that's where we blow things up. When we don't do it manually first, that's when we blow things up. I also think that we live in this binary world where we view it as automated or manual. I believe that automation exists on a scale, fully automated to we do a lot of I mean, the whole way that we changed how we make HubSpot work is this idea of automation to manual to automation to manual. And so what we're looking at here is in these heuristics, like in managing a sales conversation, there are aspects of the process that can very easily be automated. And I say easily mean it. It's clear, but the you know, you hit various points that could be touch points that could be triggers. And and variation comes in. So what we do is we build in a stop and monitor that has a manual intervention of some form, they can then that then picks things back up. So here's the general rule. If you go back I think was 1980. JOHN Nesbitt came out with the book auto trends. And he coined the term, High Tech High touch. And if you look at the underlying operating philosophy of the Four Seasons, it is automate the predictable so you can humanize the exceptional. That's what we automate, identify what are the pieces and realize your business process needs to drive your tech. So you need to like the problem and the solution isn't isn't a design of the business process. As that design gets better. That's how you pick it up into automation and realize you can't first put it in this spread In a mind map, or in a Visio file, you cannot automate it.

George Thomas 27:08
Julie, what are your thoughts?

Juli Durante 27:10
Uh, the idea of automation is one of my least favorite things. I think that it's also one of my favorite things. But

I have spoken to worked with worked for many organizations who think if we could just automate this whole thing, no one had to talk to anybody, everything would be so much better. And then you start looking at things and you realize, well, you're getting three leads a month. So you want to do all this email automation and automated segmentation and all this stuff on three leads a month, and it's going to take you 100 hours to build this thing. Just crazy automation engine, where you're going to do like automated lead nurturing send all these emails path people out, so they downloaded This offer they don't ever see it again and this and that which maybe is great for solving for the user, when in reality, you could have someone with a fractional part of their job for the time being, actually connecting with those people looking at what they're doing and if you have content to share, share good content and invest your time somewhere else like sometimes the return on effort of automation is the least worth it thing in the world. And it makes me a little bit crazy when it's looked at as the solution of marketing and growth and performance it just but I also love it because there's so much I can't do without automation.

Doug Davidoff 28:41
You know what that form of automation that you were talking about? Does don't you?

George Thomas 28:46
Tell me it auto change? Yeah, around.

Here's what's funny is because A, this is not the direction that I thought our conversation would go, but I love the fact that But this is the direction that our conversation went. Because what I hear what I think I hear you guys saying is that, well, you know, automating your process, it shouldn't be that big a deal. And many times it's not what you really want to do. However, I'm battling internally with that. That's our conversation because the number two thing, the number two problem, that sprocket talk folks have said that they have an issue with is actually automating their process. So are we saying that there's a problem out there that shouldn't exist? People shouldn't be focusing on it or are there things that people should be automating? Is it not a bad thing? Is it a good thing like,

Doug Davidoff 29:42
let me tell you, let me tell you my favorite form of automation that I've ever seen in my entire life. It is the single best piece of automation at work and it was Burger King who did it and and I went to Burger King and I ordered a quarter pounder with cheese back when I was eating quarter pounders with cheeses from Burger King and I opened up the wrapper and I lifted my burger and you know what I saw in the middle of the wrapper. It was a circle. And in the middle of the circle, it said place burger here. Okay, that was automation, right? The amount of money that that saved by simply putting a circle in the middle made it very clear and easy. For where the burger to go, it was always centered, how many burgers when they're a little bit off center, they fall out, they create other problems, etc. that is automation. So what you just said, George, the problem is, they're asking the question, How do I automate my process, but what they're trying to do is automate their technology. Right. So here's my question. You want to automate your process, show me your process. Once you show me your process, then we can figure out these are the parts to automate because they're predictable and and we can achieve Is the juice worth the squeeze? But what they want to do what they're asking you as relates to HubSpot is how do I program the workflow to do the thinking for me? No, no, no, no, no automation is an algorithm that means the thinking has already been done. So yeah, you know, while you're having problems, automating your processes, because you haven't thought about your process, you know, you can't do it five times the same way manually, you cannot automate it and stop trying to, and that's why every time you try to automate it, it blows up, because you shouldn't automate it.

George Thomas 31:30
And and, you know, what I love about your story is that the automation that Burger King put into place was there to delight the customer, because there's nothing that ticks me off more than a badly wrap sandwich. Like if I loses out on my shirt because you can't

Doug Davidoff 31:45
look like Well, that's a great point. The automation solves for the customer, but it also actually increased employee retention and employee satisfaction because you know what? Here's the beauty of automation. I don't have to think it saves my thinking today. That's why I love automation. We spend so much time thinking about low value activities. Right? But But what we want to do is we just want to offload it to automation. Instead of realizing, okay, we have to put the hard work in to do the thinking in advance, so that we don't have to think about it in implementation. But you cannot skip that step. I know you want to, I want to write, but, you know, automate my process. The key word in there is process. The noun process, the verb is automate.

Juli Durante 32:34
Can I tell you a secret?

Yay, can I

love the part where you figure out all the steps and touch points in the process?

That's my favorite. Yeah.

Like talking to people figuring out what they're doing, what different people are doing differently. We just did a big implementation of HubSpot automation for a client who was Moving from Salesforce, and a Google Sheet that they ran their whole business off of, with hundreds of new customers getting implemented and onboarded, every month from a Google Sheet. And there was this big moment of, we're going to kill the Google Sheet and you're going to lead it. And that's the use case for automation and process that I love. Right? Because there's a real pain there.

Doug Davidoff 33:26
The the juice and the value, and the delta is all in identifying those places, and specifically identifying where are the inflection points that actually make a difference? Right, and it, I mean, that's the other part of the problem is when you skip that step, that's where all the genius is. And the whole point of automation is to program the genius into the system. But if you skip the genius creation step, right. Then you miss it. You know, the other gap two goes back to the heuristic. And this is I feel for the marketer that's being tasked with marketing automation, which First off, by the way, the skillset of the marketer and the skill set of the Automator are not there's not a heavy overlap in the Venn diagram there, by the way, but but you've got the CEO who says, This is always true, because it happened yesterday. Right? And I make this mistake to me. Like, I get 80% of the picture and 80% of the time this happens, but like to make it happen this way. without human intervention, like I always say, Yes, Mr. CEO, you're right. It happened like for you, it's this is step one, step two, what you need to understand is, you actually went through 500 steps between step one and step two, right. So you because of your brain because of human, you got to skip all that and it was all one thing. But for me to replicate that I have to be able to break that apart. And so if we can't break that apart, then I can't automate it. I like to dunk a basketball George, but I can't and you got this thing called Hold gravity that keeps getting in the way. And it doesn't matter how hard I work at it or how much I want it. I got to deal with gravity. It's the same thing with automation. Yeah,

Juli Durante 35:08
we get cool. We get you a lower hoop.

George Thomas 35:10
We could do that we could do that. You know

Doug Davidoff 35:12
what sad folks that hurt. That might be the meanest thing you've ever said to me?

Juli Durante 35:16
Is that really? I'm so sorry, because I'm only five feet tall. So I would also like a lower hoop. Yes.

George Thomas 35:21
Everybody wants to lower that.

Doug Davidoff 35:22
You know, I, you know, I want to put like that. I want to see there's that see, marketers are always trying to hack. They're always trying to hack the algorithm.

Juli Durante 35:30
We're trying to solve people's problems. And your problem is you can't dunk and I want to make it attainable for you

Doug Davidoff 35:35
and be able to jump 10 feet. I want to have a 10 foot vertical. That's

Juli Durante 35:39
what I want. Okay, can I give you shoes with springs on them? Sure.

Doug Davidoff 35:44
I don't get 10 feet. That's a great place

George Thomas 35:47
to end the show, folks until we spawn again. What do you think? What do you think about the article that we've shared? What do you think about automation? Make sure you hit us up on the socials. Make sure you hit up Julie Doug max myself, make sure you're checking out the show notes. And we will definitely be ready next week with another episode where we try to keep it on the rails. And we just tell you how we feel about the things that are sales, marketing service and website design. Until next time, Doug give parting things of something somebody should do in 10 words or less over the next week,

Doug Davidoff 36:25
map a process

George Thomas 36:27
and we'll see you in the next episode.