The Spot EP7: Don't Delight Your Customer, & Anthropology Marketing


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Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, we Juli, Doug, George, and Max, talk about INBOUND 2020. Each host share 2 to 3 sessions they are excited for and why. Doug displays an amazing graphic to help promote the Inbound vs. Outbound Inbound session. (You have to watch the video to see it!)

Are you preparing your INBOUND 2020 agenda? 
Check out the Inbound Speaks interview series.

Make sure you join George & Doug for the Battle Royal (INBOUND vs OUTBOUND)

INBOUND 2020 Promo

That Hit The Spot

In this section, we dive into a conversation around delighting or not delighting your customer. Each host give some valid opinions and, George about loses his mind when it comes to tribes, best scenarios, and being lazy.

Quote from the article:

"Research shows, loyalty has a lot more to do with how well companies deliver on their basic, even plain-vanilla promises than on how dazzling the service experience might be. Yet most companies have failed to realize this and pay dearly in terms of wasted investments and lost customers."

Check out the article.

Make sure you let us know your thoughts on this subject!

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Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier. And of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready spot go. That's right, another episode of the show that you love. You're in the right spot at the spot of the moment in time while on demand because that's how we roll with this thing. But hopefully you're watching maybe you're listening. Today is going to be a very interesting show, as they all are if you have not listened or watched the last six episodes, what is wrong with you get to it. I mean, we've got Julie, we've got Max, we've got Doug. I'm here too. But not that that really matters. You know, inbound 2020 is coming up. It's next week. I actually went to the the website. Let me pull it up real quick. I went to the website. It's pretty stinking cool. I don't know if you guys have had a chance to get there to get your agenda set up. But I wanted to talk today about like, what are three sessions that each or two or one today I just want to see if you're excited about inbound and what you're planning on attending during the next two days a 22nd 23rd of next week. So Julie, Julie, have you had a chance to go to set up your profile and start to set up your agenda yet I have

Juli Durante 1:56
I went in I made my little avatar I picked a yellow shirt, because if you're gonna wear a color, it should be yellow. I know that's gonna be a hotly contested item in this call. And we did a deal to go in and register from some sesh person sessions. It's a cool platform that the inbound team has put together.

George Thomas 2:14
So what what session or two or three? are you most looking forward to attending?

Juli Durante 2:22
So one of the things I'm seeing this year that I haven't seen on the agenda in previous years and maybe I've just missed them and maybe cutting back on the number of sessions is actually a positive here is there are a number of HubSpot key study sessions. There's one on service hub automation. There is a HubSpot Academy one on there. I'm actually really looking forward to those because as someone who has used HubSpot for a long time, I always like to know how HubSpot uses HubSpot. So I can understand sometimes in the product that comes through. And not that those are limitations, but their expectations for tool usage and methodology adoption that maybe not every client or every business uses. But if you understand how HubSpot does it and intends for it to be done. You can understand how maybe you can break it and adapt it better for yourself. So I'm super stoked to get in on some of those.

George Thomas 3:15
Yeah, definitely. I I'm the service hub one service hub automation and the workflows one or two that I was like, I don't I don't care who else is talking like I'm gonna be at those for sure. Max, what, what flavor of inbound? Are you serving up yourself this year, brother?

Max Cohen 3:34
Yeah, I'm gonna be actually watching a lot of recordings because I didn't realize that inbound is falling on the day where I have a brand new set of new hires coming in. So I'm going to be watching some recordings. At least in the middle of the day. I'm obviously super excited to see the two of you go toe to toe on the inbound versus outbound debate. That's going to be super sweet. The other one that I'm looking forward to is there's a session with Bob Iger and Van Jones. I'm a big Van Jones fan. So I'm going to be interested in seeing that one. And then finally, also Alex Gerard is doing sort of an intro to the new CMS hub. And that's something I'm like super curious about because like I you know, I'm, I'm kind of often tasked as like the, the storyteller, with the new hires and trying to explain how the different parts of the tool sort of fit into the overall storyline of how a customer is using it. And you know, with the CMS hub, like I kind of grew up on that thing being like just an extra part of HubSpot where you could build a website, but now it's its own thing. And so I'm really curious to kind of see how they're positioning it and talking about it just so I can kind of take that and put my own spin on it and tell the story to the new hires when it comes out. So yeah, it's it's just got a lot of really great stuff. I love it.

George Thomas 4:49
I love it. Doug. Now I know you're getting up there in age so make sure on the 23rd you do block out 930 to 1030 or 930 to 10 For that official inbound versus outbound but weapon, but other than making sure that that is on your calendar, what what flavor of inbound Are you serving up for yourself? Fine, sir.

Doug Davidoff 5:11
And in fairness, I do usually get up at the crack of noon. That's my my target. My target time period, but I am definitely absolutely looking forward to September 23 9:30am when we had the Thrilla in virtual Manila, right, George, you're going down, you're going down. Okay, you've

George Thomas 5:30
got to watch it people. You've got to watch it. There's literally a graphic on the screen. The rest of the hosts myself are losing it right now. It's the most amazing Photoshop job ever.

Juli Durante 5:41
That's incredible. Yeah. If you are only listening, and we're probably what about the five minute mark right now? Just hop over to the YouTube channel so that you can get this amazing graphic like I just shared this is very, very good. It is. Wow. It's the whole age

Max Cohen 5:58
mindset anatomically accurate as well.

George Thomas 6:01
Yes, yes. That's exactly what they look like. When I dream

Doug Davidoff 6:07
that I've been looking forward to that one. Yeah. So obviously I'm looking to the I'm looking forward to the to the debate. That's going to be fun. There's another great session at 1230 on Wednesday, something about eliminating friction. Yeah, so I'm doing I'm doing a twofer. I'm actually really looking forward to john dicks presentation. He's going to be talking about how HubSpot built a $600 million company on HubSpot. So So Julie that gets that get that goes right to what you were. You were saying earlier. And yeah, that was interesting, because I had, like, I think we talked about a couple weeks ago. Um, I never leave club inbound. So I'm actually looking at sessions going Wait, I'm gonna see this. I'm also Yamani HubSpot new cog, I don't know if he can still call her new. She's been there for nine months. She's going to be talking a little bit about HubSpot flywheel. You know, I think HubSpot and a number of ways is at an inflection point. And so it's going to be really interesting to see to watch them in terms of the decisions that they're making. And what's cool is being able to see what are they saying they're going to do right and then you get to watch because you know, stuff happens. But also you know, just getting a feel as as that whole leadership team is really beginning to meld and of course, you know, I am looking forward to see what will Brian and our mesh do. Being able to take advantage of in essence full production so I'm expecting them to to one up their their doctor who intro from a few years ago.

George Thomas 7:45
See Do you think the doctor who intro is the best one? Because I smell

Doug Davidoff 7:49
it as a TARDIS is the best one

George Thomas 7:51
See? I still remember the AC DC for those about to rock like helicopter 2012 like I maybe it's because it was my first year but I was like like, it was amazing but easy.

Doug Davidoff 8:07
But if you go to HubSpot headquarters you go second floor the TARDIS is are there there's hardly had the HubSpot artist and if you can, that's my dream. I want to target so I wanted to make my porch. A TARDIS and my wife

Unknown Speaker 8:19
I earned this do it.

George Thomas 8:20
You heard it community has started on the fund me starting on

Unknown Speaker 8:23
the inside and the outside artists.

Juli Durante 8:25
Alright, so ask for permission or forgiveness.

Doug Davidoff 8:29
Oh, you know what? Mmm hmm. I might not be a fast learner, Julie, but I do learn eventually.

Juli Durante 8:37
Well, don't take relationship advice from me, because I'm not the one for that.

George Thomas 8:43
We could go in the deep end of the pool here, but I'll pull this back out. I'm excited. Yes, I will agree. Doug. Brian, Dharmesh. Absolutely. I'm actually really excited about Christopher or Chris Liddell che as well. Doing a whole like HubSpot Academy webinars growing an educational platform. But one that I'm really really, really like, I want to see what this gentleman does is I did an interview with john Lawson which by the way, if you're listening to this, watching this and and you're still trying to set up like your inbound agenda, because I'm probably going to try to release this before inbound guys because it would just make sense. If you're still trying to put your agenda together at the last minute, john Lawson is doing a session on 21 kick ass social commerce tactics to sell more today. And he just intrigued me when I did the interview. So go over check out the inbound speaks interviews. definitely get your agenda built. I am really excited. definitely make sure you go to join and set up your profile all those good things. Let's go ahead and get in to the section that we call that hit the spot. All right, today I brought an article from All of us to talk about. And really the question that I lean into is delighting your customers or not. Now, first of all, let me put a little background to the reason that I actually brought this article forward is because I just did another interview with Ben long from media junction about delighting your customer. And many times in life, we get into this camp of like, well, this is my camp, and I'm going to be in this camp. And sometimes I like to literally give myself a right hook, and go and see what people are saying about the opposite side of what you might think is right. And so there's, there's this article, Harvard Business Review, you may have heard of that. And it's stop trying to delight your customers. And I read it. And I was like, This needs to be on the show. I need to hear Doug riff on this article. And I want to know what Julian Mac's think about this article. And I just want to hear Doug riff on this article. So I was like, I'm putting in the show notes, we got to go. So there's a couple of things for me. When I was actually going through this that I want to want to I want to point out that were were interesting moments for me, there's one where it says, research shows loyalty has a lot more to do with how well companies deliver on the basics. Might I even say plain vanila promises versus dazzling or this kind of amazing experience might be yet most companies have failed to realize this and pay dearly in terms of wasted investments in lost customers. So like it and I do worry about this, right? It's just a matter of like, you hear HubSpot, you hear people say delight your customers, like your customers, and they're so focused on this, like, let's make a while experience that they're not paying attention to the basic fundamental foundations of what needs to be there for their company. I like that this article when when they're going into this, they're trying to answer three major questions. And so the reason I'm bringing this up is because as you're listening or watching this, you have to ask yourself, how important is customer service to loyalty? And wrap your brain around that before you read the article? Which customer service activities, increases loyalty? And which don't? I want you to write that down before you read this article. And can companies increase loyalty without raising their customer service operating cost? You may think so you may think not one last little piece and I'm gonna be quiet. I'm going to see what the what the clan says about this. delighting customers doesn't build loyalty. Hmm, reducing their effort, the work they must do to get their problems solved. does what say you crew? I'm super interested.

Max Cohen 12:51
I loved this article. Um, and I think I'm trying to like figure out if it's because it, it provided a lot of confirmation bias to the way that like I talked about the strategy behind delight when it comes to what we talked about new hire training. Because like, it's it's so true, like the idea of just doing anything and everything to make your customer happy by any means possible, right, sort of this whole mentality that KFC I think was KFC that that said the customer's always right. Right? That that doesn't necessarily delight your customers, you know what I mean? For me, the the example that I always like to use in when we when we talk about this, like the three sort of pillars that we think about when it comes to delighting people, especially because this always comes into the, you know, when we start talking about the service, how do we start talking about the strategy behind it, there's three sort of big things you want to think about. The first two are the ones that I think are really important. The first one is help customers help themselves. And the second one is creating a frictionless customer experience. So what that basically means is that helping customers help themselves should be like one of your first priorities when it comes to delight, because you got to think about how, like the reason inbound, like marketing, for example, works in the first place. We all have the inherent urge to try to solve problems on our own, I think, right? That's why we use Google. And other means to try to find an answer to a problem as quick as we can right? Think about the last time you had a problem with your iPhone. Did you immediately say, Oh, I'm going to go call Apple care, or I'm going to get on a chat with Apple care? No, you probably tried to read some articles online to figure out what was wrong with your phone first, right? We'll do anything and everything I feel at least I will try to not get on the phone with customer service. Because I think we've all been conditioned through our lives that customer service or getting on the phone with a customer service person or customer support, however you want to think about it is inherently not so great of an experience. Right? Because we think we're going to have to explain ourselves over and over as we get passed along. We think we're not they're not going to understand our problems. They're just giving us some pre fed bs on how to solve the problem and they don't truly get it. So like, I think we'll always try to start online and find an answer before we have to actually interact with a human. So I agree with a lot of what this had to say. But I don't want to drone on about it. Too much more. I want to let some other people get in here. But I really loved the article. Yeah, I

Juli Durante 15:21
think I mostly agree next. What I felt like when I was reading this article was, yeah, but this is not not delighting your customers, right? This is another one of those examples of, like, let's have the big title. Yeah. And then like reframe, with some very practical advice. Um, so there's certainly things that I can like, pull out that I liked quite a bit. But, you know, my overall feeling was, if you are doing these things really well, you are probably delighting your customers, but you're not coming at it from the approach of, oh, what can I do to delight my customers? Right? You're just doing things to provide good customer service?

Max Cohen 16:09
Yeah, the title feels foundational. The title, I think applies a very specific definition to the word delight. And that is it almost I can't remember what they said. They said something about giving away free, like discounts or, or a free service or giveaway, this giveaway that giveaway this giveaway that? And you know, to me, that doesn't mean delight, right? The other stuff it's saying to do, to me is how I is more closely to how I define the light, right? expecting like, number one, deliver on what you actually promised, right? Don't sell your product as a magic pill. Like I always tell new hires, especially the sales folks, HubSpot is a tool, it's a hammer, you have to swing it. It's wonderful flywheel, you have to put the work in, prepare them for that. And be honest about it. Don't just say it's going to solve all their problems immediately, because it's not, right. But again, you can I don't want to talk just about access fired up Max's fire. So I'm gonna shut up just because

Juli Durante 17:10
yeah, I love this. I love this. I really liked the the third point in this article, which was minimizing channel switching, and improving self service. Anytime I've worked with a client in any type of like contact center, customer service type of space, right? It's self service, self service, even in like HR, Employee Self Service, and things like that. And it's self service is such a buzzword, but every like self service platform is trash. Or so many of them are trashed on that. This idea of like, No, no, just like, the thing that you want people to do and go to and serve themselves. make that better.

Unknown Speaker 17:53
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Juli Durante 17:55
make that better make the experience better. Yes, please.

George Thomas 17:59
So I don't know I don't know about the rest of you. But I'm getting nervous because Doug looks like a puma about to pounce like he's taking a sip of water. He's quietly weighted to be last. Like, I don't I don't know what to come here. But

Doug Davidoff 18:13
so one thing to know this, this article is actually an excerpt or it's the article written for Harvard Business Review from the book, The effortless experience, which was done by CB so this actually followed up challenger sale. So first off, just I would highly recommend the book it is it's an excellent book. And it is fisted seriously research fact. Right. So I mean, it's, it's legit legit stuff here. So a couple things I'm missing, you know, the article, you know, the different takes. I think the first problem is that the the problem with the word delight is we attach meanings to the word delight. I had a client that talked about pursuing a wow experience. That's what they were. And and the problem was their customer, actually, they they didn't want a wow experience. It's kind of like an airline, right? What's that? What's a wow experience for an airline? What's the perfect experience for you? When you fly? When I remember the days when we used to get on planes and play somewhere? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

George Thomas 19:17
That was, that's Wow, that's it. That's my luggage is there? Yeah.

Doug Davidoff 19:21
You want to land safe on time, my luggage? Is there. Right. The definition of the perfect flight experience is it's absolutely totally forgettable. Right? Which is why Customer service is perceived to be so bad in the airline industry, because by definition, anything that's noticeable that happens is by definition, by definition negative because you want a completely forgettable experience. I wrote one of the very first blog posts I wrote in 2005 was defining a four seasons experience. I think I talked about this a couple episodes ago. People want what they want when they want it, preferably without having to ask everybody One misunderstood it to think that I was because I used four seasons that I met an upscale experience. So I followed that up with Walmart provides a four seasons experience, or at least they used it. And, and so, you know, delight is relative to who you're working with, where you can get rid of, you can get some of that takeaway. What I'm actually going to take issue with, though, is I don't agree that humans naturally want to solve problems on their own, as a matter of fact that that kind of goes against everything we know about human by biology and psychology we are, we're herd creatures, we're tribe creatures. And, and Max, a lot of what you said was the reason that we naturally want to solve problems on our own is because we have lots of bad solve experiences. Um, you know, I had a problem with with doordash the other night, right. And this is a huge issue in this whole direct to consumer e commerce, gig economy, you know, I order something stuff gets screwed up, I can't find anybody to talk to, I can't find anybody to resolve the problem. Let's ask the question, Why are all the SAS companies creating self serve, they're not creating self serve, because that's what their customers want. They're creating self serve, because that's what they have to do to meet the economic model of their business. Right? They can't afford to give that customer experience, right. And so, um, this is where, you know, a lot of what the the study did was it took a look at the economic outcomes. We also fall into this place where we talk about friction, and we talk as if all friction is bad. It's the issue I have with the idea of the frictionless experience or the frictionless service experience. What you want to make sure of is that your friction is isolated to areas that matter. Because when my iPhone doesn't work, I'll go to Google. Absolutely. But when I'm all the sudden, like, I'm finding it hard to breathe, or, or I see something weird on my arm, or whatever the case may be. I'm, I'm probably I don't want to go to Google. As a matter of fact, why do we go to Google, we go to Google, because we can't call our doctor in most places, right? So so it's it's bad experiences that are driving that. The other place where I think we get ourselves into a lot of trouble is we focus. I think I mentioned before good arts law is the moment you take a good measure, and you turn it into a target, it stops being a good metric. Loyalty, we talked about loyalty as the objective loyalty is a byproduct, right? and customer service doesn't drive loyalty on satisfaction doesn't drive loyalty, you know, what drives loyalty? Do you solve my problem better than the other alternatives that I have there? And so you know, in many ways, customer loyalty is driven by the same type of thing that drives customer growth, it drives new customer growth. Who is your customer? Do you solve for them? Are you better than the alternatives? Does it take less effort? Right, and that's why the name of the book i thought was great. Is is effortless, is the effortless experience. And I think where we're so many people spend so much time trying to delight I think, if we looked at it, and we said, How, how can we reduce effort? And sometimes reducing effort is let's make itself sir. But sometimes it's not. Right. And and understanding those differences. And, you know, let's look at it what is let's pick on you know, we're all fans of HubSpot here. Right? What is HubSpot at HubSpot has their premium tech support. Right? Why do they have premium tech support if everybody wants to go and solve the problem on their own because HubSpot has as good a knowledge base as anybody out there with a premium tech support because, well, to our customers that are willing to pay extra for it, we will reduce the effort because, you know, we'll let you talk to somebody who's well trained, who has more experience, who maybe knows something about you, and instead of you having to go, you know, and you know, search through 17 articles to try to get to the one point that you have. So I think that it's really a you've got to define what are you solving for?

And the last my last point is, I think what I think what every customer wants from a business is a variation of leadership. Right? In essence, what I want when I have a relationship with you, where you make my choices for me that that is all and that's why Apple is so successful. But Apple is is a juggernaut because they make the choices for their customers. And so I don't have to think when I use up all parts so

George Thomas 24:41
so there's so there's so much there that I want to kind of jump into First of all, we need a verbal rewind, and I need to know what word what Scrabble word you for. What What did you just What did you say? At the very beginning, it was like the longest Scrabble word ever You got to remember, you do not remember the Scrabble word. Like what was

Doug Davidoff 25:06
the context? It was.

George Thomas 25:09
I'm literally gonna in the editing, I'm gonna rewind and frictionless there. No, it wasn't directionless, bro. I know that it was like, crazy. I don't know, it was it was crazy, because I was sitting here and I was like, What did Doug just say? What did he drop right there? Here's the other thing. Doug, I need to know if I heard you, right? Did you say kind of towards the beginning of your section, that humans aren't self solvers? Is that what you said before I before I go, like, where I'm gonna go?

Doug Davidoff 25:43
I said they're not naturally. Do it yourself. Yeah, I mean, I'll go with Yeah, I don't know that.

George Thomas 25:50
I see that. Exactly. I don't know if I agree with that. Because here's the thing, in my understanding, and, and this is just as a human being, we wake up in the morning, and we are problem solving machines. Like how am I going to get from here to the bathroom problem? Oh, I'm going to walk. What am I going to wear today? Problem? Oh, wrong, black shirt. Wrong now. I think we're, I think all day every day, our our brain is solving problems. Now, here's, here's where I want to go though. Because me, I'm not gonna contact support. I'm gonna read the 12 knowledge articles. I'm gonna watch 17 YouTube tutorials. I'm, I'm gonna solve that problem. So and I think there's a lot maybe I could be wrong. I think there's a lot of folks out there that are built that way. Hold on,

Doug Davidoff 26:46
hold on. So you're to break down two things. The first thing is, humans are built to run on autopilot. Right. And so and I mean, Dan, Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize on this whole basis. And and the work that we do you know, the effort that it takes for us to think and make a decision, it takes extreme effort. There's actually some research around, you only have like, there's only so many decisions that you can make. I was actually just listening. Scott Galloway talked about the fact he let somebody else decide what he's going to have for lunch, because he doesn't want to waste his decision calories on making a decision about something that's not important because deciding what you're going to have for lunch uses up as much calories as any other decision. Remember, decide homicide, same Latin root. Now, now to your point, George, you're not HubSpot customer. Right? You are you're not because if you were HubSpot, customer HubSpot would not be a $600 million company. You are at an extreme extreme, this is your thing. Right? This is this is your obsession. This is your advocation as much as it is your vocation. So you want to dig in, you want to solve your, your, your you know, it's the equivalent of a wine connoisseur, right. That Yes, there are people out there and and, and and i think HubSpot does a great job of making it very easy for you to do that. Right for the US to do that. But But look at HubSpot Academy. And you'll leave I know you'll agree with this HubSpot Academy is not advanced education around HubSpot. It's good solid education. good solid. It basically says hey, I can learn I can listen. I don't have to search for a whole lot. It reduces the effort. It gives me good enough. Right and I get brought into the HubSpot tribe. I don't disagree that humans are problem solvers. But humans are also herd tribe creatures. It is the issue that we deal with with remote and where people forget that proximity has the highest impact on high trust, right when you're you tend to trust people that you're near because you get to know them. There is so there's again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions and there are aspects but I don't think you do that in every single aspect of your life to go through and and and find every video and do every video. And certainly are there individuals that are pure absolute extreme do it yourselfers, I'm sure there are. Um, that would be a very niche business to solve for just that.

George Thomas 29:24
So here's my question, though. You keep you bring up herd like herd mentality, which which I get and I understand But my question is, is it herd mentality? Or is there a word that we haven't mentioned here today? that it comes down to sometimes 70% 80% 90% does it come down to laziness?

Juli Durante 29:45
Oh, it's a different thing. That's good. No, no Julie mental laziness

George Thomas 29:50
go Julie, talk to me. And

Juli Durante 29:53
I completely see and understand where Doug is coming from here. Just Given, I'm gonna get through one of these without saying, well, I studied in college in college, and I'm just one we'll get through one episode maybe probably why? You know, 10,000 years ago, you didn't have the internet didn't have an encyclopedia, there wasn't a ton of like written information, there were no tutorials. How did you learn how to exist in the world? How did you find out that something was the food source or not? How did you learn the right way to cultivate plants? When we as humans started doing that? It wasn't because you figured it out on your own all the time. Sometimes maybe you figured something out, and you had a happy accident or something like that. But there is this idea of tribe, I think might be a stronger word than herd. I think herd as linguistically is like loaded a little bit more than it is today. And it's probably very, very three very simple, very recent change, that we have all of the information at our fingertips to, quote unquote, solve our problems for ourselves. But we're still looking for the problem that's been solved by someone. Why do I prefer HubSpot knowledge base when I'm referencing how to fix something I'm seeing in HubSpot? Well, HubSpot created it. They have the most recent information usually about their own software. And that article is most likely to be correct. I'm looking at HubSpot as a person right there a resource in my in my tool belt in that kind of situation.

Unknown Speaker 31:29

Doug Davidoff 31:31
I that's not why you go to HubSpot. HubSpot, you don't get a HubSpot knowledge base, because it's most likely it's the most likely to be correct. It's the most likely not to be incorrect. That's why we go there. We do not make decisions people do not pursue it in a very small percentage of decisions that they make are pursuing the best choice what they think has provides the best possible outcome, what they're choosing is what is most likely not to provide a worse outcome. Right? We and we don't want to say it because it sounds bad. And it's mean, our brains are lazy. We have lazy brains. That is I mean,

Max Cohen 32:12
so I'm trying to find this have the least resistance. Is that what you're saying? We

Doug Davidoff 32:16
don't try to find the path of least resistance. We don't have to try to find the path of least resistance. When I when I when a child gets lost in the woods. Where do they search, they search at the bottom of the mountain? They don't search at the top of the mountain. Why do they search at the bottom of the mountain? Because you go down hill? Because that's because it's easier to go down hill.

George Thomas 32:34
I'm not gonna disagree with you. But I am going to state that I think that you can train your brain to be a different way. I think I think that this I think that this search for mediocrity scares the crap out of me that you just said, Doug, because the fact that you wouldn't be searching for the best outcome for the only single thing that might impact your business, changed your life, radically revolutionize the universe, but because we're a human and we live in a tribe and caveman, Bob ate berries and dydz don't eat those berries. friggin freaks me out right now I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm like,

Doug Davidoff 33:13
You're, you're misunderstanding you're misunderstanding a little bit so that the the, the term is called satisficing. So you're either maximizing or you're satisficing. Right? We all maximize? Hang on, I don't

George Thomas 33:24
want to give us word satisficing

Doug Davidoff 33:27
satisficing. It's combining up there. Yes. Look at you go to Google. I'm maximizing. We all maximize and small percentages of our life realize best outcomes are outlier outcomes. If you spent your entire life trying to pursue best in everything that you did, you wouldn't be able to get anything done. If you woke up in the morning and said, What's the best way to get to the bathroom to brush my teeth? You would, I wouldn't be able to make the debate at 930 to deliver the knockout punch.

George Thomas 34:04
So on the 23rd and bounty saying folks on the 23rd 930 inbound, that's what Doug's referencing

Doug Davidoff 34:10
there. There's nothing wrong with this, right? It's just the way I mean, frankly, it's what enables us to get through in insanely crazy world we're exposed to thousands of impulses, right? What are what our limbic system does is it filters things out to say, does this matter? And the reality is in most cases, most people are looking for what's good enough. And and if you take a look at any great outcome, they're exceptional at a at a very small number of things. Because what can be you can only be exceptional at a small number of things. And so I understanding how humans work.

George Thomas 34:53
I hear what you're saying, which is interesting as you're going down this approach. I wonder if This ties all back together with exactly this article that we're talking about. And the line that I read at the very beginning, which talks about simply focusing on the basics, becoming a master of the minutiae and, and helping them solve their problems quickly and easily.

Doug Davidoff 35:19
See, I'm gonna say something I think Julie's gonna lie, I hope he's gonna like it. And I think it's striking to me that the world of sales and marketing builds itself as a discipline focused on on human influence. And, and two elements that are missing far too often. I think the sales and marketing needs more anthropologists, and more behavioral scientists. Right? behavioral science is completely missing from the world of sales and marketing. And it's bizarre. Right? And, and understanding how and why people do what they do, and where we came from. And if all you're doing is focusing on what's changing, and not understanding what's not changing, because by the way, and Julie, correct me if I'm wrong, argument, our brain hasn't changed that much. In the last, however, many thousands of years, we've been running this planet, right. And we've got all these things around us. You know, I would make the argument that in many cases, some of these, you know, whiz bang can even say Facebook tools are making us worse off. Yeah, I'm

George Thomas 36:27
not gonna disagree with that. Julie, I'm super curious on your thoughts of like, anthropology and human psychology and sales, marketing and service, like, please dive into that.

Juli Durante 36:38
Yeah. So um, by the way, there is a another great session and inbound that I'm looking forward to that's called something like an anthropologist walks into a bank. And everyone should probably try to attend that one or listen to the video as well. Um, so one of the things that I've been harping on, and George can probably attest to this lately, is the idea of how do we think better about the scientific method, and how we develop sales and marketing strategy and analyze performance and things like that. And the scientific method exists not to prove hypotheses, but to disprove hypotheses, or maybe Doug, to your point that we're not looking for the best solution, we're looking for the solution that's least likely to be wrong, as humans kind of falls in there a bit. Um, so more of that thought process is probably a good thing. It's very easy to look at data and find the data, especially in the world we have today that supports what we want it to write, you can argue any side of thing and find data points to back it up. I had a client email me recently and say, hey, we've had this many pageviews on our website. So we think we should have this extraordinary number of leads by the end of the year. And if you just look at his numbers, you could very easily say, Yeah, that makes sense. But if you look at other numbers, you can say, it doesn't make sense, right? Like, is this reality? Or can we disprove this concept? is kind of the question I'm asking a lot lately, and probably more more anthropologists might help us do that more anthropologists might lead to more asking questions, which is really important. And it certainly helps me in marketing and in Client Services, and consulting, especially. So if you're an anthropology student listening to this podcast call, Doug.

George Thomas 38:36
Yeah, or just let us know. Because I want to know, if we've got like this mass community of anthropologists listening to the spot, we arrived, we've arrived, we've officially arrived. I'm just gonna say that right now.

Doug Davidoff 38:48
I actually think you'd be surprised how many people got an anthropology degree, and realize that they need to make money. So then they got into marketing. I told

Juli Durante 38:56
that story this week. That's my story.

Doug Davidoff 38:59
I know, I know. I know, like five different I know, five, the only people that I know that are anthropologists are are in market. And they're all they're all exceptional.

Juli Durante 39:09
They're all exceptional. The thing that happens, right is when you're in college or university, and you're studying anthropology, or social or behavioral science, you kind of end up with roads. So you end up with pads, one of the paths is I'm going to go to grad school, and I'm going to become a researcher or a professor. One of the paths is I'm going to figure out how to use this to do something to make money and maybe one of the other problems is like I'm going to radically do something else. You forgot one. Yeah.

Doug Davidoff 39:36
Was the other one. There's the path of opening up the Dinosaur Park.

George Thomas 39:40
Oh man, like in Star Wars where they like cut him open and they had like karate.

Doug Davidoff 39:44
Oh, opening up Jurassic Park is what I'm talking about now.

Unknown Speaker 39:51
For sure, I like to start

George Thomas 39:53
50 points. 50 points. Anybody on this show? 50 points to anybody on the show. Who can tell me the animal that looks Skywalker opened up and stayed warm and 50 points right now hold on, man. Here's the thing, people Time flies when you're having fun I hate to cut off the show, we should just make it a two hour show. But make sure you go and check out the show notes. Watch the video, listen to the audio for what it's worth. We actually add other sections into the show notes, latest tutorials, latest interviews, all sorts of stuff. Make sure you're hitting the hashtag hashtag the spot podcast, make sure using hashtag sprocket talk. Let us know what you think of the conversation, the topics, all the things we do, make sure you're reaching out to at real Julie D at Doug Davidoff and Max Jacob Cohen. And of course me and George B. Thomas to let us know your thoughts and dreams. And by the way, by golly for all what it's worth. Go and watch the last part of this video because Doug's representation of me is back up on the screen with the inbound debates inbound versus outbound. One last quick like five word question for each and every one of you when it comes to customer delight, is it a yes? Is it a no or what should people focus on between now and the next episode Julie go

Unknown Speaker 41:09
does do good work. Well the problem

Max Cohen 41:12
better than others. Make sure you're on the same side of the table as them and do all

George Thomas 41:15
that and we'll be waiting for you in the next episode.