The Spot EP17: Lead Scoring, Company Score, and Apple Sauce


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, Doug Davidoff, Juli Durante, Max Cohen and, George B. Thomas break down their thoughts on the the topic of lead scoring, company scoring, and apple sauce or squeezing the juice from an apple vs. an orange. What? Yep, we went there. Sit in as we talk about when you don't need lead scoring vs. when you do and, what elements have to be in place for it to be effective.

Buckle up, this one gets bumpy along the way.

That Hit The Spot

This week, we have no articles on lead scoring but, feel free to share any articles you love on lead scoring with the hosts.
Make sure you are focused on engagement, information, time, as well as ICP and personas. Also, make sure you are educating your teams on what the "number" means and what actions should be taking place when said number is reached.
Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier. And of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey. Heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready spot. Go. We're back with another episode. Yep, that's me opening up a beverage because it's gonna be one of those kinds of days. So we've got we've got Julia

Unknown Speaker 0:52

Unknown Speaker 0:54

Doug Davidoff 0:56
He's already hyped up and he's Oh my god,

George Thomas 0:59
trust me. Trust me. Doug, Doug told me. Doug told me no trick questions, no trick questions. Which is funny, because there's a question in the show notes. But I actually did come to this episode with a trick question or a question that nobody knew that I was going to ask. Because I'm super curious. And I want to get your guys's vibe on something that's happening on the interwebs that I am struggling with. Because I don't need another social platform. I don't need something else. It's up to my time. And I don't really want to have fear of missing out. But daggone it. So I'm just gonna say a word. And then you guys tell me it's kind of I'll say the word in a question. Ish way, right? And then I want you guys to tell me what you know about it. If you're digging it, what's your thoughts are on it? And then we'll dive into the actual piece of the show. But here's my question. One word, question. clubhouse. Anybody? Anybody?

Doug Davidoff 2:00
Well said.

George Thomas 2:03
Anybody know what clubhouse is?

Unknown Speaker 2:06
I'm in the dark. Oh,

Doug Davidoff 2:08
clubhouses this new audio only you sign it so I don't have access to it. So I'm not used it. But as I understand it, you it. You basically create different rooms, the equivalent of rooms, people can come in. I know there's a lot of people that are you know, they're teaching their courses. It's audio only. It's other groups that are having conversations. I know it really started up in kind of the venture community. They kind of seed it in and it's grown out. And so it's kind of, I don't know, Twitter, LinkedIn groups. For audio. Link. Yeah, it's Friday. That's what I would call it.

George Thomas 2:45
It's interesting. I love to hear that matchup. Max. I love You're like I'm in the dark. I have no clue. Doug, have a quick question on that. Android or iPhone, iPhone. Okay. So it's just that you haven't gotten an invite yet. Because you are iPhone. By the way, if you're listening this watching this in your Android, you can't get access yet. They're working on it, but you can't get access. So maybe you do have FOMO because of the device. Although if you have an iPad, you can put it on iPad. So there's that right, if you had his own that is and that is it. Max is showing the icon it has gone bonkers over the last like month, month and a half to the top of like the top 12 in the iTunes Store. There's a ton of people that are flooding to it. It's by invite only. And here's the thing, the reason I bring it up is because people who do podcasts, it's a just a no brainer to actually have content in there. Or if you love talking, if you're a speaker, if you work with companies who are trying to get to the masses, and they don't want to be on video and they want to do like audio value add situations clubhouse actually might be right for your agency. And some of your clients clubhouse might be right for your agency or your company, depending on who you are as a listener, but here's the thing. I got on with my phone. And it was while we're on vacation, and it was a fun ride. It was a fun ride. But then this amazing thing happened and I had to get back to work. And I would still get like the notifications on my phone and I'm like, Okay, I'm I'm not doing this, and I deleted the app. I lasted all of four days, people four days I lasted and I'm like I gotta figure out a workaround because I want to be there but I don't want to be there because I have to get work done. So So today, I set up a little area in my office. That is the iPad. That is that is just just the clubhouse area that when I want to dive into clubhouse I use my iPad but it doesn't affect my phone which by the way yes is my camera as well. Now So I don't want that notifications going on. But I bring this up because Julie clubhouse is something that we should probably look into Doug clubhouse, I will get you an invite as soon as I have an invite, I will invite all three of you so that you can see what it is taste it, smell it, whatever. That's my that's my my sideways question, Julie. I'm curious. Like, did you did you just look did had you heard? Like cuz I know there's a lot of people that have zero clue.

Juli Durante 5:29
I've heard the the buzz in my world for a little bit. I don't have a ton of interest in it because synchronous audio communication is not on my radar is something I want in my life.

Unknown Speaker 5:43

Juli Durante 5:44
not sorry.

Doug Davidoff 5:47
Like that. Just the kidney. I don't want to talk to people.

George Thomas 5:53
Right? Right, right. I don't want to communicate with anybody.

Juli Durante 5:55
Here's the thing. I am by no means an extrovert. I am not a highly social person. I don't want that I don't like to listen to people, like my favorite podcasts and listening experiences. are not people having a ton of discourse, right? It's people talking a little bit more casually. It's things that are fun. It's not really intense stuff. And I don't I don't think I want that.

Doug Davidoff 6:30
There. Is that on clubhouse Just so you know, there. Is that all in clubhouse?

Unknown Speaker 6:34
Yeah, sure.

Doug Davidoff 6:36
No, I understand. I understand that.

Juli Durante 6:40
But yeah, it just, you know, it's it's something it's out there. I think it's, it feels very niche. To me, it's a niche audience, if not a niche subject matter on the platform, like it's a certain type of person who wants that. And it doesn't surprise me George that you're more drawn to it than I am. Because we function and communicate in very different ways. Without a doubt, what I'd much rather take that hour of my life where I can actively listen and have lunch with someone even if it's virtually then pop into something else.

Unknown Speaker 7:13

George Thomas 7:14
It's it's, it's a real thing. Like I again, this is why I'm bringing it up. Because talk about a struggle mentally, and like wanting to do these things, or these other things, or now clubhouse and again, not needing another social platform, I will tell you, one of the things that I do love about it, is the ability to be a fly on the wall. Right? So like, access to people that you usually wouldn't get access to like daymond John's or what are the fubu guy, right, like he was on, and I could go to a room and I could listen to him and his buddies talk, which is like, where does that happen, never don't have to get on stage don't have to speak to just sit and listen to a lot of these folks who are are giving away a lot of the information that might be in a paid course at this point. Because and what everybody on the platform saying as it feels like the original Twitter. That's that's what people are saying as far as the movement of it, and and what communication is being able to happen. But anyway, that's not why we're here. I just wanted to bring that up, Doug, this

Doug Davidoff 8:13
whole brain going in a direction where we're gonna have to I'm gonna have to wind myself back to our actual focus

Juli Durante 8:19
market is ruined ruin clubhouse? Is that the question? Is that the question of the day, so

George Thomas 8:23
well, so here's the thing you can already look on like Facebook, and LinkedIn and and you you hear or see, because you can't hear Facebook see clubhouse you can hear it's audio, Facebook, you read anyway. But could there could be a video, but I digress. There are people saying that marketers are already ruining it. I don't necessarily know if I agree with that. But

Doug Davidoff 8:46
we do. I don't think you're gonna have to leave this just to just marketers to ruin it.

George Thomas 8:53
Tell me why. Tell me why,

Doug Davidoff 8:54
Doug. You know, you talked about daymond john being on there. And he's talking this and that. And I gotta tell you, my first thought was, I wouldn't trust a word that's being said there. Because the whole time I'm listening talk. I'm gonna say What? What's the game here? What's the angle? Why Why are they on there? Why are they doing this? Then Not only that, you already you have a whole microsegmentation that we're just getting further and further blasted that everyone's reality is distinctly different. You know, I'm not saying let's go back to when there were only three networks. But when there were only three networks, there was a, there was a comment. I mean, all you got to do is look at what's happening in the world to see how, you know, we are a community but we don't act like that. And then the other piece is there's the thing that worries me about clubhouse is i think it's it's Twitter on steroids for Dunning Kruger, one of these you know, it's it's a great platform for con for the con, on who the person that speaks with great confidence is oftentimes not the one that should have the confidence and and there's a whole there's a whole game I have that for something and where is where for lack of better word where's the peer review for expertise? What what? Someone says something Oh, that must be and I look that probably exists on Facebook. It exists on Twitter. It exists on LinkedIn, though it is trackable. I can take a screenshot and I can share this was said, you know, clubhouse you're not supposed to be recording. Yeah, there is no record. You know, you know, the first thing that they say it's never the crime it's the cover up. And the most important thing to do in the cover of his never ever if you ever watched The Sopranos you'll notice Tony never put anything in writing.

George Thomas 10:44
Which by the way, there is no text in clubhouse it is audio only right. So so there is no there's it's there's a huge

Doug Davidoff 10:53
there. There's a huge controversy where someone is saying that I forget who this star is some celebrity said things on clubhouse that that she said, I never said that there. This is this is the canceled culture do next and there's no record.

George Thomas 11:06
Interesting. Interesting. So I am still I'm gonna give you three invites. I would love to serve. You know, I

Doug Davidoff 11:12
want to I want to check it out.

George Thomas 11:13
Yeah, I would love to have a micro conversation with you at least spending like a couple hours in it and seeing butter butter. But if we don't talk about it here, right. I can't

Doug Davidoff 11:22
touch it because I haven't used it. Like in fairness. In fairness, I'm a I haven't used it. So it's unfair for me to judge it at this point. Because I do know some people who I respect, who have said there's some great things about it, and it's actually opened up the opportunity for certain voices. But so again, it's

George Thomas 11:38
it's very interesting. Okay, Doug, how do you know? Well, first of all, I have to ask because I jacked this up a couple weeks ago. Am I the one that brought up the fact that you don't need lead scoring? Or did somebody else say that how did that end up being one of our future titles? That we I literally typed in a couple episodes ago, yo, bro, you don't need lead scoring? It wasn't really dug smoke this time because I This doesn't sound like something I

Doug Davidoff 12:06
did. That was definitely something it's definitely something that I would say open. I definitely say something like, Hey, I know you agree with me.

Unknown Speaker 12:16
Excited to drop this last lead scoring for the next 20 minutes.

George Thomas 12:20
I love this because I'm ready. This is I'm height. Right? And the trap is set. Doug? Um, how do you know if somebody won the game?

Unknown Speaker 12:30
basketball game

George Thomas 12:30
football hockey? Or let's let's go with just any sport. How do you know if they won the game?

Doug Davidoff 12:36
Who who scored? who scored more when the game is? Oh,

George Thomas 12:41
yeah. who scored more points? You know, that's the winner. Right? Julie, would you agree that if if the team scores the most points, they're the winner

Unknown Speaker 12:54
at the end of the game golf.

Unknown Speaker 12:56

Juli Durante 12:59
But fairly Bay, you know, when you so the question you put in the shownotes George was not about teams. It was not about teams. It was how do you know when you won the game? Okay, and my answer would be, you've achieved your desired outcome.

George Thomas 13:13
Which is winning.

Unknown Speaker 13:16
Right? Which is winning like which doesn't mean you've scored the most points.

George Thomas 13:21
This could be true in some games. Okay. Okay. All right. I love where this is going.

Doug Davidoff 13:26
I love Okay, here's lead scoring years lead scoring Atlanta Falcons 28 to three Oh, knows what I'm talking about.

Juli Durante 13:33
I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you discussing sports games? We don't have cable here.

Unknown Speaker 13:37
Oh, this

Doug Davidoff 13:38
was several years ago when maybe you did have cable?

Juli Durante 13:41
cable in my adult life. Maybe

Doug Davidoff 13:42
the equipment the equivalent of lead scoring is Atlanta Falcons were beaten the New England Patriots won eight to three who won the game? Because it's who has the most points at the end of the game?

Unknown Speaker 13:53
Sure. Okay.

Juli Durante 13:56
So I guess the Atlanta Falcons didn't win that game. Is that what you're telling me? Guys?

Unknown Speaker 14:00
I do not know. Yeah,

George Thomas 14:01
yeah, no, no. The Super Bowl people were smiling. Yeah.

Juli Durante 14:05
Oh, are we allowed to say that all I know about the Super Bowl is you're not allowed to talk about it. It's like Fight Club.

George Thomas 14:12
It's like It's like religion politics in the Super Bowl. Are those the three biggies? I don't I have never heard this

Juli Durante 14:18
like you can't use like Super Bowl in your marketing. You're approved to use a Super Bowl on

Unknown Speaker 14:24
Fight Club is you do not talk about like

Unknown Speaker 14:28
second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club. Right on

George Thomas 14:35
the fact that you had them ready

Unknown Speaker 14:37
for oh my gosh, so much joy.

George Thomas 14:40
I just I just bow right now. I'm bowing down. I will I will not make fun of Doug this episode due to the audio clip that he had prepared and ready to go. If I start to make fun of Doug during this episode, Max, Julie, you're allowed to like do whatever to remind me. I'm not supposed to make fun of Doug during this episode. So Let's be real. Let's get into the real real deal Holyfield here. I personally cannot imagine a world in which we do not have some type of system that we are scoring, I don't care if it's a lead company, something to be able to get some type of visual reference to what is happening around what we're doing online, I'm going to throw that out there, then I'm going to be quiet and and get why we would even go into a Yo bro, you don't need lead scoring conversation? Well, so

Doug Davidoff 15:36
I'll lead off because I'm not, I'm actually not anti lead scoring, on the anti how most lead scoring is conducted, because it's actually it uses criteria that have nothing to do with causation or probabilities that as a matter of fact, we've begun to realize, let's be honest, what the most common scoring was, you know, how many downloads, or how many downloads within a period of time. And we now know that when someone downloads 10 things at one time, that's actually a sign that they're not interested in, they're not looking to buy anything, right. And I started seeing that, you know, early, right. But one of our core things, we create an ideal client profile, we create a scoring rubric based on that profile. And so we score customers using lots of elements that relate to actions and non action. So the point when I said, where I really make fun of lead scoring, and someone says, We need lead scoring, and and what they told us is, well, I promise we don't have enough leads, right? And so here's lead scoring, when you don't have enough leads, you fit or you don't fit, right, you fit or you don't fit, right, that you fit or you don't like if I don't have if I don't have any leads George, and you have and you fit. And this other person doesn't fit. I'm sorry, this other, you know, this other person fits, but they're better. But why am I not working? Both? Right? lead scoring is designed to triage leads, and it's a filter to filter out. So why are you going to filter out leads when your problem is you don't have enough leads? Where does lead scoring make a lot of sense. I know I know companies that they cannot maintain the pace. And And so yeah, they have to take a look and and work that highest cut. And that's what lead scoring does make sense. By the way, we the lead because we use our marketing automation systems to define a lead is the person. And so the other problem with lead scoring is we score the person we score the contact, when in fact the contact has nothing fundamental for inbound marketing. CMOS are persona. So we scored a CMO at the wrong company higher than we scored a VP of sales at the right company, don't score or qualify all scoring is the version of qualifying don't qualify the contact qualify the company?

George Thomas 17:59
I think there's

Doug Davidoff 18:00
so I'm not anti scoring. It's what job are you using the scoring for?

George Thomas 18:04
Yes, yes. Okay, so I'm gonna be quiet. Julie or Max, give me your lowdown on scoring

Juli Durante 18:12
your heart about scoring because of the situation Doug just described. But also, because it's been sold to people, as this is the thing you need to do to be successful. Like, you need lead scoring, it's the be all end all of everything. And it's often not, the building a really good lead scoring model is difficult. It's challenging. And it should be if you're introducing that level of automation, for prioritization of a big bucket of leads, or companies and you can figure out how to measure it at the company level and you can, it shouldn't be easy, you should have to consider a lot of things. It should be a big cross functional exercise, you should be doing deep dives to do it right. Most people are like, Oh, they visited our website three times. They're pretty good lead. No. And okay, what I loved is that you introduced this concept of scoring, based on ICP in a rubric, which I like so much better than just a straight score. Well, I might not be well versed in sports games, as I have now out of my signing of this call. And this this episode, I am well versed in the area of competitive marching arts. Did you know that's a little thing in my life, in addition to competing with rocket had

Doug Davidoff 19:32
a gorgeous face. So then you said that so that my life would be complete.

Juli Durante 19:38
I have both competed and taught marching bands and competed in in drum corps over my years, because I am peak nerd. Wow. But what you learn is that your scoring is based on a rubric. And based on that rubric, there are different ways to achieve your ultimate score, and things kind of get weighed. And put together and, you know, it's it's this really comprehensive method of adjudication. And that I think, if people took into their life and into their work life in terms of how they prioritize and score would be so much better than a positive negative attribute model just makes so much more sense to me. And then you can say, like, these two leads, maybe have the same score. But this company is like box four, straight down the line. This company has four box fives, and a box three. And if you're a marching band person, or like emerging arts person, you know, box five is where you want to be. Right about five scores great.

Unknown Speaker 20:44
box of fives

Juli Durante 20:45
probably matter more. Yeah, it's the whole thing is this the whole world. Um, but I just like the idea of splitting it out and making it multi dimensional.

Doug Davidoff 20:56
So I'll share with you on top of that, what the, what the rubric does is the score progresses. So you know, initially, it's a set of criteria. And then as it moves through the journey, more criteria get added into the scoring moves forward. Then what we ultimately do through analysis is we identify what's the what's the, what's the high score, that says, Okay, this is, you know, full on, we're all in all hands on deck, whatever we have to do, what's the minimal score? And what we've also found is, we found the opposite. And it I think it all depends on how you do it. There's a, there's a scoring component, what's the total score, with a certain number, not below. So like, like, for us, I think we ultimately get to like 11 criteria that we score on. And by the end, if three criteria are below a three, so we scored a negative one to five, is how we do it. And if three, if we have three below three, then that is major red flag, you know, unless there's an exception, not a fit, right? Because Because we found score is good. It's like we have a whole bunch of fives, a 123, and a two, those three, you know, one, a three and a two that adds up to Okay, there's something here that's got a, and allows us to take a look at resource allocation approach, comparing things that don't look the same, etc. So yeah, that's how we do.

George Thomas 22:36
Max, I

Unknown Speaker 22:36
love that.

Juli Durante 22:37
You box five, everybody just wants to be by that.

George Thomas 22:40
I didn't know there was a

Max Cohen 22:42
question for Doug about that duck. Do you do take that system? And then like you build it inside of HubSpot using those like scoring properties?

Doug Davidoff 22:50
We do now? Yes. Do you

Max Cohen 22:51
have like other properties that then like, look at what's going on with those scoring properties? And then like change based on that? Yeah. Okay. Cool. I love that. Yeah. So like, whenever and I'll,

Doug Davidoff 23:04
by the way, as a as a rep is adding information or as marketing is getting information? those scores will update based upon

Max Cohen 23:11
Yeah. Love that. Yeah. So that. So the big thing that like I would always tell people. And first I agree with like, literally everything everyone said, Because lead scoring was one of those conversations that I used to have with people setting up HubSpot that would always like kind of make my blood boil, because like 90% of the time, they were talking about that before they even had any sort of content strategy in place, or before they were even getting leads, like they heard lead scoring. And they're like, we must do lead scoring, because we're marketers, and we have access to it now. And we must score our leads. And I would always just start with why do you know what that's going to give you? Right? Because if you think about like, in the most literal sense, when you set up lead scoring, what's it gonna do in HubSpot, it's going to give you a little field with a number on it. Right? So the question you always have to ask is like, Okay, what, who's going to use that number? who's looking at that number? And what story? Is that number going to tell? Right? And what sort of action Are you going to take because of that number? Because that's like, you know, usually, maybe marketers would create the lead scoring criteria, right? And then maybe a salesperson would see that number on a contact record or a company record or harm. Oh, yeah.

Doug Davidoff 24:28
So why don't I want to I want to hit on that because that gets to the motivation as to why everyone's looking for lead scoring, okay. They're not saying how do I build my lead scoring mechanism? They're saying, Give me lead scoring, by the way, it's built on the baseline of inbound, the number one which is someone downloads your someone downloads because someone downloads they want to buy and so what they're asking for on on lead scoring is give me the lead scoring mechanism. So it tells me who's ready to buy.

Unknown Speaker 24:57
So I agree with it. I

Doug Davidoff 24:58
agree with that, which is No, I

Max Cohen 25:00
agree with that. I totally agree with that, right? Because it's just because someone did something. Does it tell you that they wanted to buy? No, it's just telling you that they engaged in some way. Right? So, like, how much weight Are you going to put into that?

Unknown Speaker 25:15
Right? So

Max Cohen 25:15
I think like, I think when when you like, have these numbers, you have to tell your, like, whoever's looking at it, right? Because again, you could, marketers could use the lead score number sales, people can use the lead score numbers, a million different ways you can chop it up. And depending on how your content strategy is, and what you already know about how people interact with it, and the likelihood they are to buy when they download certain stuff, like that's gonna be different for everybody. The big thing that I would always say, with with, like, the actual criteria you're putting together as well, is make sure the things that are affecting the positive or negative attributes are. So what I'm looking for here, they're negative, not necessarily positive or negative, totally. But it's measuring the same thing, right? So here's where I would see a lot of people slip up, right? They come to me with a huge spreadsheet saying, here's all the different things we want to do that are gonna plus or minus a certain amount of points, right? If they have CEO in the job title, plus 10 points, if they have visited this, like certain blog post plus 15 points, right? Or, let's say plus 10. points. So if someone looks at that number, and it's 10 points, well, they don't know what actually affected that. Was it some sort of action someone took? Or was it because they were some sort of good fit, or, you know, whatever, that whatever that that criteria was set. So what I would always tell people to do, at least before they came out with the multiple kind of scoring properties thing is, I'd say like, hey, whatever you think the positive actions that someone can take on your website, right? have that be the things that either plus or minus your lead score and kind of treat it as like an engagement level? how engaged is someone with your stuff, in terms of Are they a good fit or not? run some workflows that say, if they have this, these words, in their job title, if their company is in this industry, if blah, blah, blah, equals blah, blah, blah, have a property just called fit, and have it be good fit, great, fit, bad, fit, poor fit, whatever, and set up some workflows that just label? Yeah. So what you can do now as a sales rep, is you immediately can say, Alright, filter all of my good fit leads, and then sort them by engagement level, and then start at the top and work your way down or something along those lines. But that way, when you look at that number, you know, oh, that's just telling me how engaged someone is. Right? So I know that. But the other thing, too, is like sales reps also need to know, what's a high number? What's a low number, they probably weren't there with you when you set up the criteria,

Doug Davidoff 28:03
right? So it involves a lot of communication, it doesn't tell you that it doesn't tell you that it doesn't tell you their engagement level. It tells you how many times they downloaded something or how many times they look at something, it doesn't tell you their engagement level, because

Max Cohen 28:15
that's just what I mean by engagement. Like,

Doug Davidoff 28:18
yeah, no, I understand. I understand. But but the the point of it, I mean, Julie said it best it got it got sold to them as this magic pill. Right. And they never stopped and thought about what's the job to be done? I mean, if you want to measure someone's engagement, you got to measure time. Yeah, right. And and, you know, someone who downloads 15 things is not more engaged than someone who watched 140 minute video. Now, they may be more engaged, they may, so that you're not really, I mean, I'll challenge anybody to look at it. And even the people who created I mean, bopis agreed with Bobby's come out and said it. Roberto has come out and said it, that the manual lead scoring method was a mistake.

Max Cohen 29:04
Yeah, but you got it, you have to be able to look at those things that constitute someone actually being engaged somehow. And have those be the mechanisms that actually affect whatever your scoring criteria is, you know, so Yeah, I agree. Like, just because I download something doesn't mean I should get a ton of points, because yeah, maybe I downloaded something, realize it totally wasn't for me, and I'm never gonna go back to that site again. So yeah, that doesn't mean shit.

George Thomas 29:29
So here's the deal. So here's the deal. I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying I disagree with some of what you're saying. Here, here's where I'm gonna go with this is lead scoring, the end all be all meaning is lead scoring the finish line, no. lead scoring is just the tip of the iceberg of what needs to happen to actually accumulate what would make success of scoring in general. And it's funny because you guys have actually said words Along the way that I'm like, Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Like so Doug. are most people paying attention to time with their scoring? No. should they? Yes? Is engagement. What score is about actually? Yes. What? No, hang on a second. Hang on a second. But it's only a piece of the puzzle because there's, there's informationally qualified, right? So Max, you were like, well, we're gonna score this blog post. No, the blog post is actually informationally qualified, how many pages have they viewed? How many sessions? Did it take them to view those pages? That's how informed are they on what we do, and and how we solve the problems that we solve. That's information, the qualified score, lined up with information requalified, or engagement and informed together, now we're getting somewhere. And if we take both of those pillars and put them against time, in that it took them to do those things. Now we're getting that rubrics or matrix of things that actually makes sense. Now, here's where I want to go though, because again, this this was like, yo, bro, you don't need lead scoring. We got to circle back around to that. I'll never forget, because I before you know the world change. I love going to do workshops, I love going to do workshops. One of the things that we teach during workshops is literally lead scoring. And I'll never forget, we're sitting there we got the big screen up, somebody sharing their house swap portal, and we dump into HubSpot score. And this john smith will say, score of 5052. And I stopped and I said what does that mean, roomful of marketers, room sales, sales, folks, what does that mean? That is exactly what I got silence. Nobody knew what 5052 meant. And so that's another part of this rubric says, you have to have a system in which if these things are in the same company, yeah, same company. Nobody knew what the score meant. Okay. And and so right, so so this is the that was the beginning of a moment in time. That led me to build an entire system called radar research revenue, I'm not going to talk about it here on the podcast, but literally the understanding of what you should be doing in any given amount of time, and what internal and external communications should be happening based on four pillars, persona, information, engagement and time. This rubrics now you'd have true scoring, and take into what we've talked about earlier, you start at the company level, if that passes, now, we're into the persona level, if that passes, now we look at the actual pillars. Now we're getting somewhere and you know, because of said thing is yes. And yes, it Yes. There's what it means. I love it. disagree, disagree. Talk, talk to me, where does your mind go?

Doug Davidoff 32:52
So what if I've got what if I've got the what if I've got the wrong person at the right company? Your system weeds them out? Every lead scoring system that like this, we map the wrong person? Know?

George Thomas 33:06
How are they the wrong person?

Doug Davidoff 33:08
How does it not weed it out?

George Thomas 33:09
How are they the wrong person? Are they the researcher?

Doug Davidoff 33:12
Or their marketing and their? Their Finance?

George Thomas 33:16
Yeah, that's the persona pillar. I know I know who you are, you're the reason they don't fit. You're the sales are no, but here's the thing you're thinking of buying. Or you're thinking of buy, I'm thinking of conversation, I know that I have a specific person that fits four out of seven metrics that I want to have a conversation with, and now be able to bring in the decision maker. They're not the wrong fit. They're just the right stepping stone to get to where we have to go. And it was that score. So then

Doug Davidoff 33:43
I don't understand what you're saying, if you're on if you're scoring person. And the person who's doing something is not of that persona. Then how is that not a non fit?

George Thomas 33:58
They're not the desired persona. But they are one of the personas that will work with, for instance, if either not one of the personas

Doug Davidoff 34:05
because I don't sell to Finance?

Unknown Speaker 34:07
No, no,

Doug Davidoff 34:08
they're not part of my market. Finance is not a persona is not about you,

George Thomas 34:10
and immediately know that that's not a good fit, but you can still look at the company score and see, shall we be digging there?

Doug Davidoff 34:19
Oh, okay, hold on. So we just simplified them. We just simplified your rubric, that the persona doesn't matter. The company matters.

Unknown Speaker 34:27

Doug Davidoff 34:28
because that's all my conversation because I'm going to begin my conversation. If I've got somebody at the right company that wants to have a conversation or appears to want to have a conversation, I'm going to have a conversation with them. So I don't really need to score persona. Because if they're because you just said if they're if it's the right company at and and yeah, okay, so they're not there the research or this or that, because I agree with you. I talked to finance that I learned what brought them there. They might leave me. I mean, I can't tell you how many and I'm not suggesting you start at the receptionist, but I can't tell you how many receptionists One sales from where that's where it started. Right? And they mapped out who, what and where. Okay. And so again, what I'm saying is that that I'm not against scoring. And and and you could call it lead scoring, you could call it a company rubric, you could call in any of these things. But But it all has to be built upon a path that I know you agree with this part of it, it's all got to be built upon a path that aligns with you, what's the job being done, you

Juli Durante 35:31
think the challenge I have is, is similar to what you're getting at is, so many organizations can't sit down and say, the ideal fit blank that we want sales to prioritize is this. The way we talk about personas is that the our ICP is blank or are blank, right? If you can't do those fundamental things, right, and you haven't done the exercises that you need to do to build that foundation. Any type of scoring will be premature, and will end up potentially hurting more than it helps. And I

Doug Davidoff 36:15
actually just clarified on something where I think maybe companies that do lead scoring really well get this and this is what lead scoring is lead scoring is an exclusion tactic. The only thing lead scoring is Is it is it take stuff out, it does not put stuff in. The problem is we're looking at score people are looking for scoring. You tell me who's right. What scoring does is it tells you who is not right. I won't disagree. Because everything after that requires more than what I think it doesn't as long as you're using and that's why I say No, it doesn't. It does. I think it does after you start talking there are there are other scoring. The scoring does both. But lead scoring as lead scoring, which is before any conversation is a weed out mechanism. That's what it and that's what I say if you don't have if your problem is you don't have enough leads and you want to score your you want to take a tactic designed to separate the wheat from the chaff. Right. And it's like, well, who cares? Talk to everybody. Yeah,

Max Cohen 37:21
so if you're if you're, if you're not, if you're if you're struggling to get leads, there's no sense in even having a conversation about scoring them because you need to talk to all of them anyway. Right? But it's like, when you're overwhelmed with the amount of leads that you have, and you're saying, Who should I be prioritizing? I feel like that's where it makes more sense.

Doug Davidoff 37:39
here's here's the other danger, you give something a score. And and whoever gets it is now going to believe that's their score. Right? And and you know,

Max Cohen 37:48
they they adjust and maybe you don't follow up with it. And maybe they were right.

Doug Davidoff 37:52
It's a self fulfilling prophecy you go, this is low score. And even if you do follow up, but then you just say, Oh, this is a waste. And so I go in thinking, Oh, this is this is low.

Max Cohen 38:00
So for example, right? Maybe someone comes to your site, because a friend told you told them about you. And they already came to your site with the intention to buy, they don't touch any of your content, and they just fill out your talk to Salesforce or something like that. Right? Maybe when that sales rep is looking at their leads, and they say art show me Everyone who wanted to talk to sales, and then I'm only gonna prioritize the people at the top that looked on my blog a whole bunch. Well, you're missing the dude with a zero lead score that came there because he was already ready to buy and he didn't need to read any of your shit to do

George Thomas 38:31
it. Right. Wow. Yeah. Except

Doug Davidoff 38:34
he was charged by the CEO who knows what you're doing. It says call these people up. Let them know. I want to get a proposal. Yep.

Unknown Speaker 38:41
Yeah. Okay. All right.

Unknown Speaker 38:42
So why am I really what is what it's actually telling you? Yeah. Like,

Juli Durante 38:46
I have to I have to share this chunk of life. George, I'm sorry. I have. So part of the HubSpot. Salesforce integration, if you're not familiar, is a Visualforce page that shows you a little like iframe. We'll call it of HubSpot in Salesforce. And part of that Visualforce page is the property HubSpot score and is real big on that little portion of your Salesforce contact record or lead record. I had a client who rebuilt a lead scoring model because they needed to have a lead score it was a requirement from their boss to score leads. And we didn't use HubSpot score anymore that official property we use a different additional scoring property, but you can't change that in Salesforce. It still shows HubSpot score. She quite literally called me one day and said we need to change HubSpot score the property because that's all my reps are looking at. And they're saying all the leads I pass them are too low score to follow up with. We just need to set up HubSpot score. So it sets this specific set of people above and 90 wait The value in that,

George Thomas 40:01
huh? Yeah, yeah. So here's what I want. Here's what I want to go I want to go rapid fire for the last couple minutes of this, because we could go on forever. The The episode was Yo bro, you don't need lead scoring, right? So we're just gonna go rapid fire. And we're gonna name out of what we've talked about some of the reasons why you might not lead need lead scoring? Because I do believe that companies do need or could leverage lead scoring and this boils down to the what we've talked about in so many episodes. Do they need bad lead scoring? No. Do they need good lead scoring? Possibly. So here's where I'll, I'll start this. If you're only getting five leads a month, yo, bro, you don't need lead scoring.

Doug Davidoff 40:50
You don't know what causes a sale, yo, bro. You don't need to leave school, or Sis, but for the record,

Unknown Speaker 40:58
ever, man, man.

Max Cohen 41:01
Try I'm trying to think of like how to end this with, you know, the lead scoring. But I think the big thing I would say is like, if that number really better be worth something and help you do your job better. If you're going to go through the time and effort it takes to set it up in a thoughtful way. If not a guy you don't need lead scoring. If you don't have the

Juli Durante 41:23
time level, Hey, girl, hey, into the house. Yeah, um, if you want a high return on effort of your marketing automation,

George Thomas 41:33
you don't need lead scoring. So if you don't take time to educate your sales team, and everybody else on what the score actually means how you don't need lead scoring, you got way too many leads and you don't know what to do with them. And maybe your sales rep could

Max Cohen 41:48
use a little bit of prioritization. Maybe lead score,

Juli Durante 41:53
there's a time in place. It's not everyone's done in place

Max Cohen 41:56
that Yeah, honestly, like my whole stance on it is like

George Thomas 42:00
maybe see, I will say, as we kind of close out, lead scoring companies score engagement information persona time like this. These are places that I love to nerd out, love to nerd out the education of teams across the board to understand what that actually means and creating a matrix or rubrics. Man I love to nerd out on this. Have I heard some things that you guys said today that I am like, Oh, ouch. Yes. But have I heard some things that I have absolutely fall in love with and make me push my brain to the next level of what people could be doing? Absolutely. As I'm actually

Doug Davidoff 42:45
quite I'm contractually required to say about George cuz I agree with what you said basically, but but whatever. Make sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

George Thomas 42:54
dog dog. Here's the thing. I'm not allowed to make fun of you during this episode. So that's why you're getting away with the orange juice. metaphor, by the way, since you're on metaphors. I do. I can't. I can't I can't juice and squeeze it's orange juice. If there's no D squeeze in Apple. I've never squeezed an apple to get apple.

Unknown Speaker 43:17
Yes, you're making apple cider doughnuts.

Juli Durante 43:19
Oh, apple cider.

Doug Davidoff 43:23
How do you think apple juice or apple cider gets made Georgina get just like,

George Thomas 43:27
well, it's I can't squeeze it. I squeezed in

Juli Durante 43:30
orange press it, which is like a type of squeeze. Okay, it's like a

George Thomas 43:33
super squeeze. We totally went sideways

Unknown Speaker 43:37
to get matched up and then you strain it.

Unknown Speaker 43:40
Like I think you could do either.

Unknown Speaker 43:43
I guess it's squeezing at the end of the day. Like

Juli Durante 43:45
I mean New England friend did you ever go to like an apple cider making facility when you were in grade school and watch this? Yeah, like

Unknown Speaker 43:54
all the time.

Juli Durante 43:55
Great. And then you got your fresh unpasteurized like a male killer. They like they like

Max Cohen 44:02
they make a slurry but it's just I mean, they are squeezing the juice out of it, I guess on

Unknown Speaker 44:07
the next episode

Unknown Speaker 44:11
is apple cider.

George Thomas 44:13
Doug, this is your fault right now. I'm just gonna say you

Doug Davidoff 44:17
need to tip your bartenders.

George Thomas 44:18
Yeah, tip. Tip your bartenders remember. Hit us up on Twitter at real Julie d max Jacob Cohen at Doug Davidoff. I'm at George B. Thomas. Remember to use the hashtags. The spot hashtag spot podcast, hashtag whatever. Let us know if you enjoyed this episode. And of course we'll see you in the next episode.