The Spot EP9: Personalizing Your Sales and Marketing Outreach


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, we Juli, Doug, and George talk about sales, marketing and personalizing your outreach. You might be wondering, what does that even mean?

Well, buckle up and let's get into it.

That Hit The Spot

Personalizing your outreach!

Marketing Outreach

5 Tips to Personalize Your Marketing (Without Looking Like a Creep)

Sales Outreach

29 tips to get super successful in sales outreach (2020)

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success make work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right You ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes Welcome to this week's episode of the spot all right ready spot go and we're back with another episode of the spots where I have to just start out we're missing our dude max we're missing max because he's usually with us on the show but you know it's baby time in the CO and household and so we're holding you know tight to see what's going on what's happened yet who oh my goodness I

Doug Davidoff 1:07
got to tell you hold on hold on a second I got it I got a because you know Max is in here not because of work Max is here because he's expecting his baby girl I got a little bit of a tribute for for max I hope that's all right.

Unknown Speaker 1:19
Oh, that's fine.

Doug Davidoff 1:35
Yo Max has for you.

George Thomas 1:37
That's sir max we'll see we'll see if this episode get banned on an all the iTunes app you know the giggles We'll see. But we'll have it

Doug Davidoff 1:47
copyright infringement here for Matt Come on.

George Thomas 1:52
I mean, if you're gonna be a dad, you gotta you know infringe on the copyrights every now and I guess so. So here's the thing we do miss them. The show you sweating a little bit he's sweating. Oh no, I'm not like First of all, I do like that song. I will say that like a hidden secret. I do like country. I just don't know if I like a long enough segment of country that was

Doug Davidoff 2:16
wrapped around your little finger already. And American girl so you know it. I love it. I know. 30 seconds of country feels like five minutes. I understand.

George Thomas 2:25
Oh, that's terrible. That's terrible. No, no, no, we can't we can't beat up country. I need all my country folks who are listening to do a hashtag the spot podcast and a heart with country we need to go ahead and let these folks know what's up. So here's the thing. I started out the podcast started out with an outreach right outreach to max to let max know that we that we you know are thinking of him. I reached out to him via email before the podcast started. Hey, you know, fingers crossed, we're thinking of you Love you. And and that's because my mind has been on for this episode, what we're gonna be talking about is outreach and personalizing your outreach. Now, I will kind of throw the rules out here to the audience. So they know. Usually we have an article per week this week, I threw two articles in there. Because many times when I'm talking to people, and we talk about personalizing your outreach, there's a confusion if it's marketing, or if it's sales that we're having this conversation around. So found two articles, one on marketing, one on sales, we're going to kind of go through these. Let's start with the marketing one. Julie Max, Max. Whew, Julie. Doug, I got max on the brain, guys. Julie, Doug, what are your thoughts on this first article, by word stream that is actually titled, I'm trying to get there real quick, because I was down at the bottom of the article, five tips to personalize your

Unknown Speaker 3:55

George Thomas 3:56
like a cream. And we almost said that in unison. We almost said that and use and so what what are your guys's thoughts?

Doug Davidoff 4:03
I think it's a good idea not to look like a creep.

Juli Durante 4:05
I like the idea of not looking like a grape.

George Thomas 4:07
I'm down with that. I'm down with that.

Juli Durante 4:10
Although I'm gonna, I'm gonna be constrained here. Have you ever gotten an email that recognizes that it's a little bit creepy and it kind of, like delightful in its own way. I

Unknown Speaker 4:19

Juli Durante 4:20
Someone does an abandoned cart email and I don't know who it who it is. I can't even off the top of my mind. But the subject line is always like, we caught you looking.

Doug Davidoff 4:28
Okay, so so you know, that actually gets to the point that I was gonna i was i was gonna let you the marketer kind of kicked this off. But you get you went right to the point of what where I was going to go I actually think the problem with personalization is is twofold. The first problem is it's all about tactical, if you read anything about personalization, you know, it gets into tactics and techniques, which anytime you do that you come down into, use the personalization token or first name, etc. I think the word that We're looking for is not personalization, I think it's contextual, is it? And so what you did there, she, you were on the cart, there's a level of engagement, there's something that's happening, it fit a context of that. So it, it replicated a little bit of the feel that you might have from from a live standpoint. If that's executed? Well, um, you know, I've gotten emails where it's, you know, either using just straight personalization tokens or these crappy AI algorithm tokens, and then try to play off of that, Hey, I know it might look creepy that we know that you're an Orioles fan. Now Actually, I'm a nationalist fan. Thank you very much the fact that I'm in an oral zip code, you see that caused you a little bit of a problem, you are to zip code and you see baseball in my Twitter feed. Right? Those things come in. And and I think it's what we're really looking for is contextually

George Thomas 5:47
it's interesting that you bring that up, Doug, and then I'm just gonna say a short little quippy thing to this article. There is a part that says bad personalization is worse than no personalization at all. So there is this kind of piece where you're talking about and I felt to there was an underlying conversation. And I'm glad you busted this out, because I was trying to figure out like, they're actually talking about something else, especially the second article, but we'll get it we'll get into that. Julie, what are your thoughts,

Juli Durante 6:19
I've been having this conversation with a few different clients this week. And it's been a it's been an interesting metaphor. And I'm going to apply it here have really like cool sounding interesting, compelling ideas from a marketing standpoint. And I'm gonna come back to personalization on this. And as marketers, we kind of like shiny new things, we like a little flash in the pan, we like something that sounds like, woo, like, that's the sexy marketing thing. And sometimes, occasionally, those things fall into the bucket of stuff that's really important to do. Often. It's kind of extra. So the thing I've been saying to some clients lately is you have to eat your broccoli, before you can have ice cream. And I feel like with personalization, it's such a hook. It sounds so cool. It sounds like this, like great panacea for everything in the world. And everything that's wrong with marketing. But it's really ice cream. And I say it's ice cream. Because if you're adding personalization for it to work well, in order to actually affect your performance, you need to already have a nicely running marketing program. Like, if you don't have a website that has a clear value proposition and people can get there and understand what you do. Adding some personalization to your website, even smart content at that point, isn't going to make it better. It's going to make it more complicated. And it doesn't mean you're going to get better results. I love the idea. But I think it's a lot of the times ice cream. Let me ask you

Doug Davidoff 7:56
a serious question. What is personalization? When you say, when you say, if you're going to do personalization, if you're going to personalize what what does that mean? Yeah.

Juli Durante 8:06
And so to me, the idea of personalization is like dynamically adjusting your website content based on information you have about the viewer or the visitor. So that could be inferred information. Or it could be explicit information. Right? It could be this is a known contact in my database revisiting. They have looked at 17 pages about blogging, so I'm going to give them more content about blogging from marketing agency standpoint, or it could be this is a mobile visitor and I'm going to like personalize the content they see because I'm going to give them shorter, more snackable content because they're on mobile. And then if they do convert follow up with longer form content that they can consume better on desktop devices. Do See, here's the problem.

George Thomas 8:54
Here's the problem, though. Here's the problem. You got that answer dug from Julie because Julie's been in the trenches and been a ninja and I agree with everything that Julie said, but she leaned heavily into smart content, or changing the page. If you ask the question, you asked Julie to probably mostly 70 made up number 70%. If you ask that to most people, they'll be like, Oh, well, I used a one of those things called I used a token in my email, right? They'll say a personalized token in my ear. I said Hi, first name. So therefore, check job done. Like that's that's the problem where you were going into contextual or context. I think there's this conversation that has to be had. That is its context, its personalization, but they have to work hand in hand. And so it's something like yes, you can use their name and you can use their company name and but you should also have this other layer of that you're changing things out based on the life cycle journey, based on the things you know

Doug Davidoff 10:00
Go ahead, let me let me point out the biggest conflict in this idea of personalization where I use their name, I use data about them, which, you know, back in my day, we call that mail merge. And and, you know, so the idea is, it's we're gonna make it personal, it's going to come across as though we know that because Hi, Julie, here's my question, people that you have a personal relationship with, how many of your emails do you start off? hydralie? When you're emailing somebody that you already talked to? How many times do you use the name of their company? Three times in the email? How many times when you're sending an email to somebody, you know, do you say, George, here's the information you requested? Right? The reality is, we create, I find the vast majority of quote unquote, personalization tools, actually D personalizes it, you actually broadcast the fact that there is no relationship because if there were a relationship you would be using, how are you doing? Right, you would be using third person pronouns, you'd be communicating and whatever that language that you communicate in is, and and I find, you know, you know, 90% of the time that you're using that, that idea to say, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna point this in. I think it's, it's extraneous, and it actually adds to the static, it doesn't reduce.

George Thomas 11:25
So I'm gonna say yes and no, yes or no, because I actually do like, in a b2b world with every one of my clients like, it's like, Melissa, comma, Craig, calm, like, I do do that. from a business standpoint, now, if if I'm emailing, let's just say, Doug, I'm emailing you. I'm like, What's up, bro? Right, like, so I understand where you're going with this. But I also do feel there is a time and place where we

Doug Davidoff 11:53
met beginning that said, I did my beginning the email you're talking about in the subject line?

George Thomas 11:56
I'm, well, either. Wow. Okay. So now, I don't know who are you? Because Because now that's a big difference, right? Because when I was listening to you talk, I was envisioning this was the actual email you're talking about. But if you're talking about the subject line, I don't ever, in a real world scenario, use their first name in the subject line. However, what's funny, from a marketing standpoint, I use their first name a lot in the subject line, so Well, that's interesting, huh? And he,

Doug Davidoff 12:34
but by the way, here, here's a contextual item, right? If not, not, now, there's a world between George and Hey, bro. Right as your as your salutation, right? There's a world between that. But But if you start off George, comma, and for anyone, like the way I do it from a sales standpoint, and we're going to talk about sales later, is I see how does the person start their email, so they start their emails with Hi, Doug, I go back with this. If they go with just my straight name, I go there, if they don't use my name and the right into whatever the email is, I do that. Because again, I'm being contextual,

Unknown Speaker 13:08
loving, little mirroring,

Doug Davidoff 13:10
right? I do that, by the way, I do that with my friends as well. That's actually how I do that, too. But But I'll say there are certainly times where you're communicating in business where there's going to be a degree that's more formal. And and I'll remind you that what you're doing is you're creating a contextual marker that says, this is a business relationship, not a personal relationship, right? It's not a huge thing. It's not but but there is a like, if that's not how you're normally communicating. So you're using that formal approach you are saying and, but there are times that that's the right thing to do. And it all goes back to you know, the the point that we were talking about earlier, which is really what's the context of the situation, but all like all the stuff that you like, if you're contextual. You can't be creepy. Hmm. How's that? How's that for hashtag? Yeah. Is that how I do it? Yes.

George Thomas 14:05
Hashtag show non creepy. I would say that junk right there. That's I agree with you. Go ahead, Julie.

Juli Durante 14:12
I just feel like it's extra. Like it's not. I think personalization as a concept in marketing is over emphasized and takes away from doing good work to begin with.

Doug Davidoff 14:24
Did you say extraneous? Or was it

Unknown Speaker 14:27

Doug Davidoff 14:28
I'm missing her the trainees. I did

Juli Durante 14:31
not say extreme. Yes. Um, we're bringing jersey today.

Unknown Speaker 14:36
Just like

Doug Davidoff 14:38
I was saying it's extremely it's actually I was my sarcastic way of saying I think personalization is extraneous. Yeah. 90% of the time. It's it's right. Yeah, it's not just extra. It's not the ice cream. It's not No, no, it's I like ice cream, ice cream. tops off the Neal. Ice cream off the meal. I think personalization like is subtracted 90% of time.

Juli Durante 14:59
So Let me let me redefine ice cream now. So it's not ice cream because it's delightful and fun and delicious. It's ice cream, because it's not fundamental to keeping you alive. I don't know, like, there

George Thomas 15:11
again, ice cream, like I'm gonna die if I don't have ice cream, you know, you know,

Doug Davidoff 15:15
actually actually that is that is true. Because there there is, there is a satisfaction if you deny yourself of that. Now, if you don't enjoy it, then it's something different. But But again, so. So ice cream, it's not fundamental to the meal, but it tops it off, it makes it special, it's additive. So it doesn't take away from the meal. I'm saying that personalization. When you're thinking if you're thinking personalization, the vast, vast majority of times I see it being executed, and it takes away. Because again, the reason that you're doing it is to try to create this appearance of a personal relationship. Yet I say again, if you don't do that, when you have a personal relationship, will you continue to put the name of their company in the middle of the third line of your email, when you're sending them an email after you've worked with them for six months? You see, and I know we're gonna talk about this in sales. This is what I teach salespeople all the time, when you begin that call with somebody you've never talked to before. Sound like you've talked to them before? Yeah, I if I listened to your call, on the very first on a very first cold call, and I listened to your call, when you're talking to somebody for the 17th time, I should not be able to take to tell a stylistic difference, right. So when I make you feel like you've talked to me before, you're more likely to talk to me because we don't go up to people that we want to meet in social situations and go, hello, Julie, my name is Doug. Before we get started, let me explain the three reasons why I represent a superior, right? We don't do those things. We just say Hey, how you doing? What's going on? Hey, Julie, this is done. Right? And I say to somebody, if you say hey, if that's what your thing, then when you're cold call and say, Hey, that might be right off, Dan. But no, it's not. And I would say the same thing comes in, you know, what would you do? If you already knew that? What would you do if you already had a relationship with them? And and that's probably what you should do. Right now, before you have a relationship.

George Thomas 17:14
I think it's really interesting that on the marketing side of this, because by the way, the conversation we're trying to have is personalizing your outreach. And on the marketing side of this, we completely dove into like the tactical personalization token, should it be subject line, should it be in the email is an email, we really never even talked about anything past email, Doug, you mentioned somewhere along the lines, data. And in the article because I do want to switch gears into the sales side and see what that conversation ends up being. But in this article, you have to you have to read this viewers listeners, because there is a part where it talks about data and collecting data. And one of the things that frustrated me the most about this article was one little sentence that said, the more loops, I don't even know if I can read it. The more loops the user needs to jump through while exploring your website, the better because you want to collect more data, because you want to be able to personalize. And Doug, when you said something a couple minutes ago, my brain was like here's another tweetable moment, spend more time building the relationship than building the perception that there is a relationship and that's when you're going to be able to win on this. Let's jump to the other article. Because we had we had two articles we had from the marketing standpoint, we had from the sales standpoint, and the sales one it is actually 29 tips to get super successful in sales outreach. And so Doug Julie, what are your thoughts on this article? What did you love? What did you hate the good the bad the ugly talk to me,

Juli Durante 18:48
I'm gonna share one that I'm not supposed to like but I really liked was included in like the first section, this like, what are the chapters? I guess the second section, what are the different channels I liked, direct mail was included. I like that direct mail was included. And that's because we like get into this this place sometimes of like, oh, we're digital marketers. We're doing inbound. Like there's no time and place for this that's traditional. It's old fashioned. It doesn't work at this nut. Sometimes it does. And I love things that aren't supposed to work that do. And I like things that take into consideration like sometimes for your audience, this will reach them better than that email because you know what I look at every email I get I technically open every email I get most of them I delete some of them I marked as unread to come back to, but not because of the subject line. It's not because they use my name or didn't use my name. It's usually because it's an email that I'm expecting to receive that I really like. But I have actually gotten became a minute. I've actually gotten direct mail that I've looked at and said Oh, I should save this for later and come back to it though Have all the data that was like, Oh, yeah,

George Thomas 20:03
can you please,

Doug Davidoff 20:04
I'm struggling to unstuck and she opens every email that you Yes.

Unknown Speaker 20:08
Oh, no, no, but

Juli Durante 20:09
I don't read every email I open every

Doug Davidoff 20:11
email, I understand I'm just

George Thomas 20:13
gonna fuck you, I need you to plug gears for a second. I just need you to plug yours. Julie, here's the deal. I love the fact that they brought up direct mail as well. Because back when inbound 2020 was happening, I had to do this thing inbound versus outbound. And one of the things that I didn't talk about that one of the things that I would have said, If I had the time to say it was that like, here's the only way I can communicate this. Why did blogging work? blogging worked effectively, because nobody was doing it. Nobody was doing it. And so you were first this space, you started the blog, you were there in a quiet space. When everybody started blogging, you know, one of the things I used to tell people go run a magazine ad, because it's super quiet over there right now. Like the thing that the thing that a lot of folks can really pay attention to that may work for their business is look where the noise is. Turn around 180 degrees and go play in that playground. Because your competition isn't there, the pricing is gonna be down like there's so when you when this was in here, direct mail, I'm like, I don't have a problem with direct mail. I don't have a problem. If If I am a provider of hunting gear, I'm gonna go be in Deer Hunter magazine. There's no reason why I wouldn't still be in Deer Hunter magazine if I'm doing hunting gear, because it's it's super quiet there right now, because everybody's moving on to other new tactic.

Juli Durante 21:44
Unless you can't afford the Media Buy because you're a new, I don't know, bow hunting gear company who's doing X, Y, or Z and you're not ready to buy a placement in your hundred magazine and which gives you might go for a digital ad or something else because it's cheaper. Capital upfront. Mm hmm.

Doug Davidoff 22:03
George, I think you've got the right answer for the wrong reason. I don't think blogging was successful because no one was doing it. I think because blogging wasn't a tactic. The people who started blogging blog, because they had something to say, um, you know, I still remember when the data came out that the more you blog, the more leads you got. If you blog once a week, you get this, if you blog three times a week, you get this, if you've got five times a week, you get this, except the people who started blogging three times a week and five times a week did that before there was data. And what that meant was they had, they had three blogs a week or five blogs a week of quality. Like they needed to blog five times a week, because that's what was needed to get that out. And then someone said, Oh, if you blog five times a week, no, I always say that we, you know, the the email wasn't successful, because it had a 7% Click rate. It had a 7% Click rate because the email was successful. Hmm. Right. And so we turn we keep turning outcomes or byproducts into objectives. And and so, you know, anybody that's ever been against direct mail is foolish, right? And and, you know, yes, there's there was absolutely times where mail, we were over overwhelmed by mail. But but here's something else, I don't care what you sell, we got it. As long as you're selling to humans, something that I think we're forgetting in this whole massive run to digitization is that humans are 3d tactile creatures, we also need to understand that humans process information off of a digital screen fundamentally differently than they offer it, then they process it off of a physical document, it literally connects to two distinctly different parts of their brain. One of the reasons there's so much grift in in this online digital world, is because when we process off of a computer screen, it goes right to our amygdala first. And then then we need to get our executive functions working to actually think about it. And that's why it's, you know, so emotionally driven, so polarizing, etc. Because the fundamental way that we process it feeds into that, and so you get to take advantage of people not thinking. So yeah, I think that you got to bring this all together. Now, as it relates to the article. Here's where this whole personalized outreach, I just think that we're making something that's not complicated, complicated, I think I think it's inherently simple. It's not easy. But that's, we keep trying to get the tactics and the techniques and the 29 tips to make it easy. It's never going to be easy. Because easy is noise. The complexity is, is what are you communicate? Before we got on, Julie talked to us about her socks and she had this complicated way of trying to figure out and she she realized, Hey, I could really see I brought it into the podcast before you did. Yes. You said you're going to weave it into an episode. I like it. And so, you know, like, my point is getting things set up having something to say, That's tough. Understanding your customer, that's tough. But if you understand your customer, and you understand the problems they have, and you understand what matters, well, you can't not personalize, you can't not contextualize. Right? And, and so if you don't have that knowledge, then you you cannot do that. And if you do have that knowledge, you know, it's a natural byproduct. And so I think it just comes down to again, if you have a friend, or if you have a really good friend, then you have the skills and the knowledge to succeed. And personalized outreach, because that's how you got your friend. You know, it's all about how do we replicate? I call them best friend conversations. And that's what it comes down to. And and then I mean,

George Thomas 25:58
it's so interesting, because when I hear you say that it's like, be human, and Don't try too hard. Like that comes down to those two things. But Doug, you're like a master of like, tweetable moments on this episode, by the way, because you said and I'm like, Oh, dang, somebody tweaked that, Johnny,

Doug Davidoff 26:17
George, hang around with me. I know, when you use.

George Thomas 26:21
You said, easiest noise. tweet that junk out right there because that that's a true fact. Now, the thing that you did say is you said it's hard. And the one thing I will say is I think that this article at least does a job in making it a little bit easier for those that might not be equipped immediately like you with the ability to put it into a process. Right? So so hang on, hang on, hang on, I'll let you disagree in a second. The one thing I do want people to look out of this whole 29 tip thing is there's a section that's called optimize your program. And it goes through these like 12345 I don't necessarily care if you read the paragraphs, to be honest with you. But I want you to read the numbered headings in what is the optimizer program? Okay, disagree with me, Doug, because that's what this podcast is all about.

Doug Davidoff 27:16
So it says according to Wistia, including video in their outreach efforts led to 140% higher click rate. And so now people are throwing video into their email outreach, and it's just horrible. And I feel bad for reps because they've been told putting put put video into your email, and so they do shitty emails. I'm sorry, can I say that? I'm shooting videos, but I meant it. Yeah, yeah, you're good. You're good? Well, I mean, if crappy video led Well,

George Thomas 27:40
yeah. If it's a crappy video, it's a crappy email, by the way, just let's just throw that out there. Because one's gonna, like, make the other ones suck.

Doug Davidoff 27:48
Right. And so, you know, people hear Oh, direct mail, I should go do direct mail. Hey, we have the direct now, you know, who is a Marshall McClellan said, like, 100 years ago, the medium is the message, right? That's, that's still true. Right? And and, you know, the, the amount of stuff that you know, how many there became this really popular line, never hold the meeting, when it could have been when it could have been solved with an email, never hold of anyone you could solve with an email? Well, if your video should just be an email, which I'm sorry to tell most salespeople out there most 98% of your videos should just be emails that then just have it be an email, right? If you're going to do something on video, then then make sure you're taking advantage of that medium that it didn't mean something, or else it just becomes more and more and more background noise and and it lacks authenticity and lacks a j I mean, it says be human but but we put the tack like you know what, you know what I'll say they should have had the part and I agree you should read through that. The the section you talked about, maybe they should have led off with that. And then said, Here are some tactics, but but I can tell you like the mindset of it already is here's the tactics. Oh, by the way, here's the structure, and you need structure

George Thomas 28:55
first, Julie, what are your thoughts?

Juli Durante 28:57
Um, so with you, Doug on video. Um, the other thing with this Wistia stat though, I don't know if they're asking the right question. Um, so Wistia did a study on themselves and including videos and Wistia, the video hosting provider, including video in their emails lead to better performance while they're selling video, so I hope so. Right? Like, yes, good. Very good. It doesn't mean it will work for everyone. I think it can be used good when used correctly. But for example, I am not good at taking information from a video and learning anything and doing anything and retaining it doesn't work for me. I have also worked with a lot of adult learners and training and onboarding, where just accessing a video even if it's a one to one video doesn't work for them. So I think you need the right additional information and context to use video Well, um, so for example, if you send me a video, and then send me the bullet points, I will get so much more out of that. But if you just send me the video, I have to watch Three to five times I get anything from it. And I don't have time to watch a video three to five times. So I'm not the persona for video communications. I'm not the persona for asynchronous video so so

Doug Davidoff 30:11
my point and my point was not about video. I just brought that up as an example. I just want you messed up right there. Right there. I'll go there.

George Thomas 30:20
I'm gonna go there. As soon as Julie's done. I'm going there. I like I'm sitting here in anticipation. Let's see.

Doug Davidoff 30:25
Yeah, I'm gonna say what George says. If you guys are not on the video, you need to get on sprocket talk and you need to get on the video and you need to see George's like, there is literally smoke coming underneath the headphones from George so I can't Oh, words, the floor is yours.

George Thomas 30:41
Well, Julie was finishing I was I was trying to let Julie

Juli Durante 30:45
I just didn't I just didn't like that that data point as I'm, you know, like digging into these these tactics as they're presented. Like, I just don't think it's the right data point. Um, and that bugs me.

George Thomas 30:56
Yes, the data point is flawed because you're taking experts who are already experts at video, applying video in a new direction and using your own data for that point. So that's jacked up completely dug your thing about reps earned being told to do video and they suck. Yes, the problem there is reps aren't being told to educate themselves on how to do good video and then do video right, which is exactly why and not to be promotional. why we created the one to one personalized video course it's sprocket talk, so that we could actually go and have people watch this course. And it's well at why at impulse creative. We're teaching clients, their sales reps, how to do personalized video one to one video good because there's a goal to it, there's something that you're trying to achieve, there is a method to the madness that should be put into place other than I'm just going to create a video and shove it in an email and send it and I'm good to go. Julie, one of the things that you mentioned was please give me the bullet points. We literally teach this thing called an email recipe, where you actually have a video, you have a paragraph that has a goal, you've got some bullet points, it has a goal. These links have a goal, you have a close that has a goal. And it's a nice email video recipe that works hand in hand with that video. And I'll say this isn't going away. Because if you pay attention to what HubSpot just did, go into your portal, look at your drag and drop email tool. And you're gonna see that there's now a new video module that you can drop into your email, upload a video to your file manager in HubSpot and actually put video in email, not a thumbnail, but a video in your email through your HubSpot tool. So like getting good at this educating yourself on this because this tactic used in a best practice way can give you good data points. But there's so much that has to be there first. I had to get that off my chest people I'm just saying,

Doug Davidoff 32:57
I know that you know this. But what comes before all of that is having something worth saying in the first place? Well, Oh,

Unknown Speaker 33:05

Unknown Speaker 33:08
I can hear you now I couldn't hear you.

Juli Durante 33:13
It's broccoli, you have to eat your broccoli.

Doug Davidoff 33:16
If, if your email is empty, and you go to Video, then then you're going to be worse than and I would much much rather get an empty email than an empty video, you'll do less damage with an empty email than an empty video. If you got a quality and I know I know you're you're you're you're pulling out. I'm not I am by no means anti video. I could I could have picked on the data about live chat. I would say it's the same thing. Right? It's, it's, you know, what if we just you know, I started doing video and I'm the first person to tell you that I got a face made for radio. Right? I started doing video with no intent of doing video. It just became you know, I had a message I had I I was frankly eating up so much time going over the same material with people in a sales process. I remember getting ready for it. I was like if I have to do this thing one more time, I will shoot myself. I can't I can't hear myself say this anymore. And I realized I need to get this on video. I started using it. I had all kinds of and then I started doing some more than I you know and I know I had someone tell me you know Marcus, who we all know and love. And there's you and Marcus are probably the biggest champions of video in in the world. And I'll tell you anybody out there, they should go out George, you should put in the show notes. One of your first videos, you should put one of Marcus's first videos, right when he was talking about two different pool things and you're like this guy is now doing this. Right and and it was okay. Because what you both had when your video style was just not very good. You had something worth saying and you had and the passion was there and it was meant to be an opinion. duction quality was just horrible. And I mean, I think that you couldn't even keep the cameras steady. But it was still like, I want what some of that guy has, right that that's what video brings out. Those are the pieces that are the fundamental. So I would say that's where, you know, the video becomes the ice cream. And and and that's the kid and that's where it gets. To me it all comes back to contextual ization when you use video and video is not the right meaning it's out of context, right and I can be completely contextualized never using your name never using your company contextualized is it feels like you get me right that and if you're if you're focused on seeing the world through their eyes, and making them feel like, it feels like you get me, then all the other stuff. They can be accoutrements, but but be really, really careful. Because you end up being becoming one of those singers that has all these vocal tricks. Like I think, I think Christina Aguilera is one of the most talented singers in history. The thing that drives me crazy about her music is she uses like, I mean, she can do every musical trick in the book. And she's got all these songs where she does like seven or eight of them, there's like, um, you know, if you had done one or two, this would have been amazing. I'm like, tired now listening. I don't mean to like, again, I think she's an extraordinarily talented artist. I just, you know, it's, I think we do that with all this. And I think as the technology gets better and better, we have more tricks and things to play with. We you know, we start, it's gratuitous use off, right and stay focused on you know, rule number one and every keep it simple. The simpler, the better only do it if it's worth doing otherwise, don't do it.

George Thomas 36:38
Yeah. So here's let's, let's wrap this up. And I'm going to use Julie. So I'm glad that you're ready to talk. Let's kind of wrap this up. And let's discuss like, we'll do Julie and Doug. And then I'll go last like your when you think about personalizing your outreach, like what are your tips tip thought, like, go in that direction.

Juli Durante 37:00
My biggest thing is anytime you read, see, hear, smell something about personalizing your outreach, you have to think about who is this for and who is not for? Right, not every tactic is for every business for every recipient, or every persona for every stage of maturity for a marketing program. And if you just are reading the thing, and you're reading about the tactic, and you don't know why you would use that, or how you would use that, or how you would not use that, take a beat before you start doing it.

Doug Davidoff 37:35
It could be no one understand your customer in the area that you impact them better than they know, understand themselves, see the world through their eyes. Solve for them. And remember that the question, the definition of value creation comes down to how do you answer this question? What I have paid to have experienced whatever you did, so if your email created value, would I have paid to read your email? Would I have paid to have taken your sales call? Because whether or not someone physically pays with money, realize they do pay? They pay with their most expensive asset and that's time and attention? And if you focus on those things, and frankly, everything else takes care of itself.

George Thomas 38:15
Yeah, for me, it's funny as we were kind of going through this, I got I went back to basics right. We've all heard HubSpot Academy and a bazillion other people say it's all about the right message at the right time for the right person. And it's never said Bobby, Susie, Jenny, Billy, Phil, any of that. And so I love Doug, that instead of personalization, it's about context. And it is about having data and understanding who they are having data and understanding where they are. And then being able to have the right tools like kind of Julie said there to have that conversation in a way that breaks the noise that gets past the noise that everybody else is throwing out. So I love I'm gonna finally finalize it with this, Doug, I love the fact that you said keep it simple. So as you move forward and you think of your personalization, your context the journey that you're putting your people on, keep it simple, check out these two articles. And we of course will be here waiting for you in the next episode but in between now and then make sure you hit us on the Twitter's at real Julie D at max Jacob Cohen at Davidoff I finally have them all memorized. By the way. I am not even looking at a piece of paper right now. I'm at George B. Thomas. use hashtag the spot podcast or hashtag sprocket talk. And Julie, Julie. Hopefully everybody listened to this point. Because if you say okay as the ending word of this episode, I did record our sock conversation. And if you say okay, it will be at the end of this episode after our exit music so what are your thoughts?

Juli Durante 40:11
I, you know, my thoughts are I'm really here to change lives and for me if if you want to share that conversation, which was a life changing toxic in my life, that's that's just okay.

Okay, so last year. Um, so before quarantine I used to go to the gym very early in the morning like 5685 Sunday they woke up before five to go to the gym. And I found myself being late sometimes, because I was rifling through my sock Dre finding the socks that I like to wear with a certain pair of sneakers based on the this or that that of that day. And this extended to like other aspects, but we're gonna focus on socks for this conversation. So I throw it all myself

Unknown Speaker 41:02
through all my socks, and replace them with three kinds of socks.

Unknown Speaker 41:08
And they're in three different colors.

Juli Durante 41:11
And I have black socks that I wear with sneakers for the gym. I have white socks that are like no show cut to wear with like fashion sneakers and things like that. And I have hand socks to wear with like flats and heels and like Lady shoes that you need socks for. And then I have like a pair of hiking socks. So day to day, I'm choosing between one of three colors and here's the best part. I don't have to fold or organize because they're all different colors. In the laundry. If I lose one sock, it doesn't really matter because all of my socks of that color match all of my socks of that color. And I got a whole bunch of new socks. But the benefit is now when I'm like getting ready in the morning I'm in a rush and it's not like black ones.

Unknown Speaker 42:01
To black always match. Yeah.

Juli Durante 42:05
ever made.

George Thomas 42:06
I love the decision, but I just I'm gonna ask you one question. Where did you say you keep your sucks

Juli Durante 42:12
in a draw? Oh my gosh, I'm gonna draw properly in a draw as you do in New Jersey. Thank you very much.

George Thomas 42:20
Well Enjoy your new sock strategy and we'll see you on the next episode.