The Spot EP18: Positive & Negative Friction in Your Business Flywheel


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, Doug Davidoff, Juli Durante, and, George B. Thomas break down their thoughts on the topic of positive and negative friction in your personal life and of course, your business flywheel.

They share stories, examples, and real reasons you need to be intentional, slow down to speed up and so much more. Heck, we even get a little mythological along the way. Buckle up, this one gets bumpy along the way.

That Hit The Spot

Below you will find the supporting actors of this week's podcast episode. Dig in and learn more about how positive and negative friction can impact your life and business.

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli: @realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot, education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier. And of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready spot go. And we are back with another episode of the spot where we're going to talk about all things fun and interesting. And if you've been paying attention along the way, you realize that we are now in the episodes of episodes where they came out of another episode. Anyway, you would have to be watching or listening to understand what I mean by that. But today, I want to start by saying hey, we miss Max. Max is our guy, but he can't make it today. And I want to ask all of us myself, but I'll probably go last. Why? Because I have all editing power. You have to watch another episode to understand that as well. But I want to start with a question for you, Julie. And for you, Doug, to today to get us started off. And we're going to talk about friction. But what is a point in your life that you correlate to friction? Like if you think of

Unknown Speaker 1:38

George Thomas 1:39
or Wow, I will actually I will I'll just say what is the point in your life that you correlate to friction?

Doug Davidoff 1:47
Are you going to start giving us these questions in advance? Because

George Thomas 1:50
first of all, my dude, first of all, it has been in the show notes since I shared the show notes. So just letting you know, I didn't give it to you in advance.

Doug Davidoff 2:03
Oh, you mean there's something other than the article?

George Thomas 2:05
There is there is it's in the ready.

Doug Davidoff 2:09
College is I gave away that I didn't actually do my homework by asking. Yeah,

George Thomas 2:12

Juli Durante 2:15
A little time. I'm gonna go first. Yeah, yeah, I got you. So I thought about this a bunch, George. And I was like, Well, what causes friction in my personal life? What causes friction in my professional life? Like, what are some of the things that I won't bore people to death and I talked about, and then I came to the conclusion that the things that cause friction, right, kind of the boring things, right and on a day to day basis, so and they're kind of similar things personally and professionally, right? The stuff that you kind of have to grind on the stuff that's hard, the stuff that takes longer than you feel like it should, but has to happen, like those friction points for me are really what I was thinking about. And they all sort of fall into this project management type of framework for me. Right, I think, as a marketer, client, manager, human manager, right, I always have a list of things that need to get done. And as a human, I like to have like a home and a physical space and a, like digital space that's organized in a certain way. And, and that causes friction, right? Right now I'm organizing my pantry at my new house. And I'm trying to figure out how a bunch of stuff will fit together. And I'm trying not to buy a ton of new things. And I'm trying to make sure that I have myself set up for success during the week so that I can meal prep or actually cooked dinner and it's not too annoying to clean up. And it's a system to keep up with. But keeping up with it is easy, but also it's going to be a little bit challenging. So those types of things to me are friction points in my life, for better or for worse. I like I like how you

George Thomas 4:11
and ended that, for better or for worse, but we'll get back to that we'll

Unknown Speaker 4:15
get back to that Duck Duck.

George Thomas 4:17
This reminds me of like when you get a test, and the top of the test says don't answer any of these questions, but then you answer all the questions. What just happened a little bit ago at the beginning of this episode, but when you think of other than right now, friction points, this app

Doug Davidoff 4:33
so you know, that happened to me.

George Thomas 4:37
What do you think of friction points in your life? Where do you go?

Doug Davidoff 4:41
Um, so thank you, Julie provided me some time. I appreciate it. You're gonna help two points in my life that I would associate with Berkshire in 1995 1986 and 2000 to 2003 9596. I was a really good sales rep in 93 I won the Tom Hopkins champion bootcamp first place trophy, it's still to this day, the largest trophy that I've ever won. It's like five feet tall. I was in camp, I had to figure out how to bring it back on the plane. You know, you had you had to demonstrate mastery, like 47 different objections out overcome, you know, everything about old school sales. And man, I was a really good old school sales rep. But the thing that was interesting is I didn't really always like myself. When I was selling, I oftentimes had to be something that I didn't want to be because I thought my job was to make people buy. And, and so it led to a conflict. Now 9596 was a was a period where I really got stuck in Houston airport, actually one of the giant wind storms and seeing whipping up stuck down with an ASP 16 Shades of Grey laptop, and I had a Jerry Maguire moment. And I called it Death of a Salesman. And it was selling in the information age, and I kind of had this whole rethink, of, you know, why did people not like salespeople, and, by the way, one of the biggest complaints that you hear from salespeople is they don't always like what they're doing. When they're doing it, they oftentimes feel like they have to be something else. One of the lessons I learned is, if you ever feel like you're selling, you're doing something wrong, you know, what would categorize that was, I wasn't free to do what to do what I felt I was supposed to do. Now, the good news is it led to, you know, basically, everything that I do today is a result of that 2000 to 2003, I was a financial advisor at Merrill Lynch, every day a news article came out about how Merrill Lynch was screwing over their customers, which was a nasty place to be. And I saw firsthand how an organization that put itself out as an advisor and a caretaker to individuals was far more interested in managing their stock price than they were in managing the value of your portfolio. My manager would come into my office every month and say, How are things looking? And I would also I'll spare the specific words that I use, I told him to get the hell out of my office, basically. And the reason was, he wasn't asking me how are my clients do? And he was asking me, how am I doing to my number and I'm a firm believer that you know, that you're not hitting your numbers a byproduct of, but but more so what I was supposed to be doing, which was to create optimal strategies for my clients to achieve their to achieve their objectives, I saw more and more, the company that I worked for, was working against what I was supposed to be doing. And so there again, what you'll see in those two stories was situations where I found myself where the structure of where I was worked against what I thought was the right thing to do. It is frankly, the number one role in my life now, which is when I make big decisions. I focus in very, very heavily on what level of agency do I have? Do I get to control? You know, do I get to live in alignment with what with who I think I am? And that kind of drives what I do. So anyways, those are the two places where where I would associate as being high friction. It's interesting,

George Thomas 8:18
it's in high friction. Okay, we're gonna get back to that, too. So Julie's, for better or for worse, dog high friction. Um, it's funny when I actually wrote this question in the show notes. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna answer this. And I was quickly then almost like, I don't, I don't actually want to answer this. But I had already typed it. And I had already shared the outline. And I'm like, Well, now we're in a pickle. And so I went through very much like usually the process of like, well, I, it's not exciting, and it's like, but maybe it's not supposed to be right, like friction. Maybe it's not exciting. But it's important, right? It's very important. Again, we'll dive into that a little bit for me, I actually go to about a year ago, because there's this terrible pattern that happens in my life. I want to get healthy. I don't get healthy. I want to get healthy. I don't get healthy. I end up in the hospital. I want to get healthy. I don't get healthy. Right. And and a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago now. It got to the point where and yes, folks, I am telling a personal story, but this translates into business as well, a year ago and it got to the point where I could not almost stand up and could not walk to go like from my recliner to my kitchen. And I tried everything to figure it out. Like I quit drinking coffee and I like tried all these different things and I like it. Talk about friction not being able to To move in the way that you're used to being able to move, that's friction. And I would say that it's bad friction, at least then I would say that it was bad friction because it was painful. It hurt. it slowed me down. It affected me mentally, physically, right. Because when you're not right, in one area of your life, you're probably not completely right in in another area of your life. And so to make a what could be a long story very short, I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. And I'm like, well, that's crappy. That describes scrappy, major high friction point. And and talk about for better or for worse, it could be for worse, like it could be for worse. Or you can take these friction points in your life, and you can make them for better. And that's where I think it's interesting because the conversation that we want to have on a business level is, is friction always negative? Or is friction always positive? Or can friction be both negative and positive? And the answer sounds simple. Although many times the things that are simple in life can actually be very complex. And there's a whole complex and simplicity conversation in the link. In the article, the link is in the show notes. By the way, you can dive into that a little bit more See how I tie that in there, Doug, but for me, I have realized that that friction was good friction, because it's that friction that caused me to end up losing 65 to 70 pounds. It's that friction that caused a chain reaction of dominoes to make me think a different way be a different way break the cycle of wanting to be healthy, not be healthy, wanting to be healthy, not be healthy. So I'm curious, spinning back around. Julie, you talked about project management and tasks and organization. Is that friction good friction, is it bad friction? Like do you how do you feel after the things are in place? Doug, your friction, those two times your life? Like it was probably hell, high friction going through it. But how did you feel afterwards? So so I'll let you guys unpack both of those. But really, the question is, is friction always bad? and wax poetic on that?

Doug Davidoff 12:23
I don't think friction is either good or bad. I think friction is I think it's the implications of friction. I think it's the context of friction that determines mean, if there are two forces that determine any behavior, there's promoting forces, and there are inhibiting forces, right, promoting forces or putting power behind something. inhibiting forces are restrained, right? They slow things down. They they right. And so the context of the situation, and really, it's the consequence of that determines good or bad, I think, you know, again, friction itself, it just is something that is just inherently something. The question is, is it intentional? Is it not intentional. So I know one of the things we'll talk about as an example of good friction, I'll give you a great example of good friction, the treads on your tires, the treads on your tires slow you down. They also keep your car on the road. It's why NASCAR, when the moment it starts raining, like the first drop of rain, they either have to change their tires, or they pull over because those tires have no friction. Right? And so they have no hold, they have no traction. I'll also say this, I believe that every event that has ever meant anything to anybody in their life is a is an event that included friction. Every event, every great thing that's happened to you has friction as a part of it. We just don't think of the friction when it's good. Right? So friction has a negative association to it. Right? And it's almost like, you know, if you notice the whatever, it's bad, but there are times where slowing us down financial advisors, underperform their customers, one of the main reasons why they have zero friction to buy herself. Oh, by the way, there's all kinds of research that shows that me having to talk like the single best thing that I ever did for my clients was when they had an impulse. They reached out to me, and I just slowed them down and made them think about it. You know, I can't tell you how many times I have thanked the spirits above that Google that Gmail allows you to recall a sent email, right? I hit Send and go Oh, wait, what up looks? I'll tell you I would love it. If If Gmail had their little algorithm, how they're now autocompleting where if you could program certain moods that requires you when you hit send, you have to do a CAPTCHA code because how many times do we wish We just thought before we sent, right, and those are situations where, gosh, we work, we wish there was some friction. Yeah, right. And so like in your event, yeah, what happened to you created friction, that now forced you to think about something that you didn't think about before. Right? I know Jim Rohn probably said it best, easy to do easy not to do. Right? If it's easier not to do it, then you're not going to do it. If it's easier to do it, you do it. One way to make something easier to do is bring forward to promote behind it make it easier, make it more obvious. But another way to make something easier to do is make the things that you don't want to do harder to do add some friction. And so and so the question is, what's the outcome that we're looking for? How do we apply it the reason that friction has such a negative connotation is because all the places where friction occurs, with no purpose, and friction with no purpose is almost always going to lead to a negative outcome, or at least a negative effect?

George Thomas 16:10
Yeah, so so much good there, like literally rewind. There's, there's so much there, Julie, what what are your thoughts?

Juli Durante 16:16
I mean, I can basically say the same thing except my example of positive direction, just so you know, is usually walking so closely related, you know, on the same page, I'm a big believer in positive friction is really what it comes down to, I don't think everything should be easy. I don't think making things easy or frictionless all the time actually solves for anything. So purposeful friction, I suppose, as you're calling it, Doug, is really key. But I really do think that a positive friction exists in the world exists in our personal lives and exists in our work lives. And it's, it's important to keep in mind and ask, you know, why do I think this should be easier? You know, I have, like, a very silly example of friction in my life is project management. But it's the thing that sets up the rest of my life, like my entire life is basically an exercise in project management. And I have folks on my team sometimes who say, like, well, if we're doing this, and we're doing this from a project management standpoint, aren't we just doing that twice? I say, well, we kind of are, right, yeah, I can understand that. That's a friction point. But we're doing it twice for a reason. And there's a specific reason why we're checking and double checking, or we're doing and documenting, or we're x and y, right? And those are the points to me that if you know why you're introducing friction, because because you can introduce friction, just like you can resolve friction or remove friction. You know why you're putting that on the table? And you can articulate that and have it makes sense, then it makes working through the friction a little bit easier. Because you understand the outcome.

Doug Davidoff 17:54
A wise person once said, measure twice, cut once.

Juli Durante 17:58
Yeah. And sometimes if you're me, you measure twice, cut once, and it's still wrong.

George Thomas 18:03
Oh, man, I tell you a big

Doug Davidoff 18:06
element on project management, where you where we've increased friction is checklists, right? How many times do we jump into a project with jumping to start doing things? We get halfway in and we go, Oh, I forgot x. Right. There's a reason that pilots by law basically are required to complete a checklist before they fought, you know, before they go through. There's a reason that doctors and surgeons complete a checklist. There's a reason that nurses have checklists, right? It slows you down at the point where you want to be slowed down so that you can speed up.

George Thomas 18:40
There's there's

Juli Durante 18:42
never said that to you before.

George Thomas 18:43
Yeah, yeah, the whole slow down to speed up thing. We could have that that should be a whole nother episode. I have heard that so many years ago, I

Doug Davidoff 18:53
said 20 years ago, I started teaching in rcma sales training, the fastest way to shorten the sales cycle is to slow down the sales process, right? And so sales reps go, you know, we try to go to the clothes, we try to get to the recommendations as fast as possible. Right, and really our whole formula to sales flips instead of spending 20%. In qualification for lack of a better term, and then 80% presenting, discussing overcoming and this we spent 80% of our time, diagnosis, diagnosing and designing. And if you're spending more than 20% of your time, quote, unquote, selling, you did something wrong. And people go, Well, how can you do that, that that's going to take too much time I go well, it's going to take too much time before you get to the you should buy this, but it's going to take a whole whole whole lot less time once you get there. And you'll also be allocating your time much more effectively. If you look at the sales teams that we coach, they manage fewer opportunities, right because because because we bring in the friction to identify, let's get things out that shouldn't be there as early as possible. So that we can then go all in on the things that should be that's another place where you have to bring in friction to make that happen. And where, Julie, what I think you were saying too, is with this obsession of eliminating friction, we're actually increasing that, that negative effect, if you will, it's Yeah, it's impacting client satisfaction. It's impacting churn,

George Thomas 20:22
this is a great place to get into your article, or the link in the show notes. But before we do that, I'm glad that you guys actually like you both use the examples of good friction, right, you did. Tire walking, I do brought an example of good friction, like I want everybody that's watching or listening to this, to imagine yourself that you're in a dark, cold cave, okay, let that sink in for a second year, a dark, cold cave, the only thing that you want, as you want some light, and you want some heat, right? Again, you're in a dark, cold cave. And now I want you to strike that match. But there's no friction in the world. You cannot like that match. Because that friction causes the flame. It's what will allow you to start your fire, it will what is what will give you light and heat. So it's positive. But the thing that you have to think about I love that Doug, you said it's not positive or negative. It's just a thing. It is a thing that is out there. I like that we leaned into this purpose or my word for 2021 is intentional, intentional friction, the checklist the examples that we've given. I love those. Doug, what I want you to do, I want you to give us a synopsis on the link that we put in the show notes today. And I definitely don't want you to leave out the mythological story or parable that is in this article as well. So kind of tell the viewers listeners, if they dive into this, what they're going to find and then we're going to circle back around and we're going to talk about yours Julie's my take on this whole intentional friction when it comes to business and maybe next actions people should take after they read this

Doug Davidoff 22:12
article. So the post is called Sisyphus for Sisyphus verse the flywheel for those of you who aren't familiar with Sisyphus, he is the Greek mythological, mythological character who was forced to push a stone uphill for eternity, which I think we can all after 2020 I think most of us can probably empathize with that. And you know, so the idea is you know that the flywheel has become a very common metaphor for growth principles. You know, HubSpot has, you know, kicked out the funnel and adopted the flywheel but but the flywheel existed before then Elon Musk is a big fan of the flywheel. Jim Collins in the book, Good to Great cut, talked about the flywheel. And I do agree, I think the flywheel is a tremendous metaphor for good growth, because if you manage the flywheel correctly, it stores up momentum and energy and generates greater velocity with less and less effort. The problem is when we bring the human element into it, and especially when we apply it to sales and marketing, we view things through that lens of increased force. So we want that flywheel to go faster, we do more and more and more. And that has been the dominant play in all sales and marketing organizations for the last 50 years. Right. Just take a look at your annual plan, and how much more are you trying to do? Do more do it better do it with less that's been the mantra. But But what we forget is, force has benefit, but its benefit is limited. And what has unlimited benefit is reducing the friction associated with that flywheel. If you're working with just an individual single flywheel, then eliminate friction. There is no good friction in a true true flywheel. The reality is the business flywheel is actually multiple flywheels working within that flywheel. So you begin to bring in constraints, bottlenecks, rhythms and things like that. So now you're having to orchestrate and align, to be able to maximize that that's where sometimes you got to slow this down to alignment, that that's good friction, bad friction. Now, the other element, and I'll get into more of a summary of the key points. And I think this gets into the metaphor that you're talking about. And to me, I have to talk about a scientific principle, which is understanding how the second law of thermodynamics applies to business growth. Right, the second law of thermodynamics says entropy is always increasing. Entropy represents disorder and randomness, right? In simple terms, as things go forward. randomness and complexity and disorder increases right at that. Now entropy is also a measurement of heat. It gets into a whole bunch of other things. But the truth is simply living. Every day you live, you pick up increasing complexity, randomness and disorder. Write that has to be managed. When you add growth to that, you're going to increase the rate of randomness and chaos that you get. And you have to manage that. And and so here again, what we have to do is friction is not a bug. It's just a natural aspect, it is always there, it is not eliminate its manage, right, it's again, looking at it as not being good or bad. And so, you know, the post really talks about a couple of really five key elements. The first thing is, we confuse the word complex and the word complicated, we think they mean the same thing. They do not mean the same thing. As matter of fact, they mean very, very different things. And we have to understand that we live in complex systems. And that means they're impacted by and impact all the other systems around them. And they are dynamic, and they're adaptive. So it is never one straight thing. There's always a changing circumstance and understanding, you know, when you're managing the complex, there is no right answer. There are some wrong answers. It's about managing between managing between zero and one, it comes down to everything is about making trade offs. If we add friction here, this is the advantage. This is the disadvantage. If we take friction away. This is the advantages, the disadvantages, right? There's always the question is what are you trading off to? So you got to be clear on what your objective is that gets what I said earlier, around context, that leads to the way to deal with this I was when we used to have to fly to places that we hadn't been to before we're at a meeting, it's running long. We got we know we have to catch a flight and we finally get into our rental car, like oh my god, I don't know if I'm gonna have enough time to return the car. Am I gonna miss my flight? We're driving down the highway, you know, every 10th of a mile. We're seeing a road sign here and exit sign there. We're going it feels like like, I should have seen the exit point. Oh, did I go too far? Did I miss something. And we keep getting exposed to more and more and more information. And every time every road sign that we get exposed to our anxiety level shot up, because we didn't know how to process that. We didn't have the map. Well, now we have GPS systems in our cars. We know if we're going to miss the flight or Okay, it's still okay. Okay, I'm still okay. Okay. So looks I'm okay. All right. So that context comes in? Well, we're how many people have that map for their business? How many of you have truly mapped out your customer acquisition and retention flow? Right? Literally, that whole piece at MLS? You're never going to map it 100% correctly. But you can't have a hypothesis. I think we talked about this on a previous episode, if you don't have a picture of what it's supposed to be to be able to identify Well, what was different? Right. And so we ended up, you know, jumping through this randomness, of you know, this that, you know, we become kind of that pinball machine, if that leads to creating a true modus operandi, right. That's your word intention. Right. The way you deal with this, as it's intentional, by the way to be intentional requires friction, because to be intentional means you have to stop access your system to thinking which eats up an awful lot of energy. And we're not going to think if we don't slow down. But you know what, we don't have time in execution to slow down like that. What we have to do is we have to do that thinking in advance so that when we come to these situations, we have maps in place, this roads closed, no problem, I got a GPS system. It tells me what my options are, I can make that analysis. And very quickly take that next step. That's why playbooks documented intentional playbooks are so important. Right, realize you have a playbook. It's just a question of, is it intentional? And is it document and that's what brings kind of this whole idea of revenue operations, kind of the way I look at it is traditional sales and marketing. They they're primarily responsible for managing the fourth side of the flywheel occasion, revenue operations, primarily responsible for managing the friction side of the equation. And again, you'll notice I said managing, not eliminate,

George Thomas 29:07
Julie thoughts.

Juli Durante 29:09
I mean, do I have addition? It's not really right. I think we've established in previous episodes that Doug and I are really on the same page when it comes to this topic. But it can be helpful to think through a specific example, on how all of this stuff kind of webs together, I'm going to really slim it down to a very simple marketing example. One of the things we think about with force and friction, right is let's just take it all the way back to generating leads and having sales work those leads, strip all the other stuff about business out of it. If you think about spinning the flywheel, right, you could say your lead gen efforts are designed to increase force because you're trying to fill your funnel flywheel whatever situation with more leads, and if I think about that, in a silo, if I think about that, On an island as a marketer, I'm like, Well, I'm generating traffic to my website, I got a lot of new eyeballs looking at things they're turning into leads at such and such a rate, I want more leads. So I'm going to change what I'm doing from a conversion standpoint, to get more of those new eyeballs that I think are really good to convert. So I'm going to look at my forms on this content marketing offer. And I'm going to eliminate phone number. And all of a sudden, I see a huge increase in leads and my great, I have added force to the flywheel I'm having a positive impact, things should be spinning faster. And I do my end of month reporting. Follow up with my BD Rs. And they say, Well, you know, we got all these additional leads, which is awesome. I don't have any phone numbers, I kind of got a lot of main lines, I got a lot of gatekeepers, I wasn't able to connect with any of these leads. So I decreased friction for my site visitors and got them to convert higher, which I thought would push things forward and add more force in my flywheel. Turns out when that handoff point happened, I maybe didn't oopsie. Right, because instead of having a call rate or connection rate of one metric for vdrs, which I thought would hold true, I took some information away from them. And this is oversimplified as an example, right, but I took information away from them that turned out to be really important for their process. And they were less successful. So I might have thought I was reducing friction and applying force, I actually slowed everything down. And I'm gonna have to recruit from there. When I think about positive friction and purposeful friction, I'm really thinking about what's the next step? And maybe even what's the previous step? And how do we sort of optimize along the way? So what is the greater implication? What's the ripple effect of doing this thing that I think is designed to apply force or reduce friction? And what does it mean three steps away from now,

George Thomas 32:04
I love that because I when I listen to your story, Julie and I love By the way, I love when we simplify things, I think people inherently can get it. I I envision your story and what Doug was talking about how there's multiple flywheels in a business. And, you know, visually in my mind, when you were telling your story, I saw the marketing of flywheel spinning so fast that it was ripping the actual pieces off of the sales flywheel and so it was then going so slow, it was like destructive at that point. And, and I don't think that that's something that people think about because historically we have and we we can, again, we've talked about silos, silos are good silos are bad, but but we've talked about this thing of, historically, we have not had a revenue or rev ops or, or, or a look across the entire board. Everybody on this podcast at this point now is really stepping back and looking across, you know, sales, marketing, support, finance, HR. And so if you're watching this and listening this and you're not taking a step back, slowing down to go faster, seeing how the individual flywheels work together, to actually be in somewhat of an intentional harmony, then that's definitely a next action item. Guys, can you believe that we've already blown through our time for this episode. Pardon me, it's it's crazy. Like we just, here's the thing, I'm gonna let people know that I put a link in the show notes for other examples of positive friction. So if you don't believe that it can be positive, go and check these out. It's pretty cool. I also put a link in because I love Doug's article, Sisyphus, I was like, Huh, I put a link in the show notes to actually a video that talks about that whole mythological story and pieces and parts of it so you might enjoy that if you want to go check that out. But here's what I want to close with. I want to close with Doug Julie and this is spur of the moment this isn't in the show notes at the bottom of the of the thing. You know, when we've had this conversation, we've talked about a lot of things intentionality and flywheels, and and all of this. If somebody's sitting here at the end of this episode, and they're like, what do I do next? How do I move forward drill down to one simple thing that you would say to that person to send them on their way,

Doug Davidoff 34:42
Matt, your customer acquisition, retention and expansion. I think it all starts with that. By the way, you'll notice I didn't say map your sales, marketing and success processes, the moment we bring with them which are talking about sales marketing success, we're now taking an internal focus which is not going to optimized, let's map the acquisition, retention and expansion. How does that happen? How is that supposed to happen?

Juli Durante 35:07
If you're thinking about this professionally from, you know, this, this lens of acquisition through success, right? Think about your handoff points. When things move person to person, whether that's customer to internal or internal to internal, see what points of friction you might have there. And why you have those friction points to help you see if that's good or bad. Or if it's something that should be eased, or if it's something that should be Captain explained.

George Thomas 35:40
Yeah, I love that. For me, I am going to tell you to go read the article. And when I say read the article, I want you to go to the article with an open mind as I read the article. It's funny cuz we historically talked about insights like writing for insights. I physically could feel Doug hitting me with about three two by fours during this. And and so the complex conversation, by the way, give me a little chuckle on the Twitter's at Doug Davidoff at George B. Thomas at max Jacob Cohen at real Julie D. When you get to the whole pig section. Now you'll really have to go read it because you have no idea what I'm talking about. When you get to the pig section, tell me what you think. But also playbooks that's huge in there. And then of course, at the end, where we start to talk about something that's very important, so go check that article out. The other piece for me personally, is if you're the person who is running so fast that you're destroying the rest of your team. Check yourself before you wreck yourself and we will see you in the next episode.