The Spot EP10: Congrats, Storytelling, and Analyzing & Reporting


Ready, Spot, Go

This week we are going to chat about reporting and analyzing as well as the power of storytelling in your sales and marketing efforts.

A huge congrats to our boy Max - Audrey Juliette Cohen and she was born 9/27/2020 at 6:23 PM and was 8 lbs even.

Let's buckle up and get into the good stuff.

That Hit The Spot

Juli brings us a fantastic article on the power of storytelling!
To say the conversation gets nerdy is a slight understatement.
Check out the article and let us know your thoughts!

In The Spotlight

What tools do you use when it comes to analyzing and reporting?
What tips would you give someone when they are:
  1. First starting out
  2. Looking to get a bit more advanced
Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot, education ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready spot. Go and we're back with another episode Episode 10 of the spot podcast or spot show or I don't know it's we're just the spot. Guys. How has your week been Doug and Julie?

Doug Davidoff 0:58
I think this week's been a great five weeks.

Juli Durante 1:01
Yes, I was going to say something similar. It seems everyone has awoken from the the summer slumber and we're kind of full force pushing things ahead. And it's been a lot of moving pieces.

George Thomas 1:12
Yeah, it is the most monthly week ever. I will agree with you guys. And here's the thing. What's nice is we're gonna have a fun little conversation. We're gonna hopefully get around to reporting and analyzing but we also have an article but before we get into that, we have to say we have to say let all the listeners know congrats to our boy max. Audrey Juliet Cohen was born 927 2020 at 6:23pm and eight pounds eight pound baby girl. So congratulations, Doug. Where's your applause, bro? I was waiting for you to have applause ready for that? Come on now. But anyway, congratulations to max for super excited and can't wait to get back to the show. But we know that you're doing your fatherly duties. With that said, let's go ahead and get

Doug Davidoff 2:00
you the weekend. He would want to be on the show, huh? Yeah. You know, give me a break or something. Yeah,

George Thomas 2:05
yeah, that would

Doug Davidoff 2:06
be I wasn't supposed to say that out loud. Sorry. No,

George Thomas 2:08
that would be kind of a dad thing to do sometimes, like so here's the thing. I will share a little story, Doug, now that you opened that before we get into that hit the spot. I think it was our third child. My wife was still in the hospital. It was maybe a couple hours, maybe four hours after the maybe six hours, we'll say six because then it doesn't sound so bad after the birth of it was Noah that myself, my wife's brother and my wife's father went golfing after she had given birth that day. So I've heard that through the years that I did that.

Doug Davidoff 2:40
So yeah, there's my first Father's Day, my wife asked me what I wanted. And I asked it all I asked for was permission to be able to go golfing next Mother's Day but did not go for you know,

George Thomas 2:51
not even that's not okay, well, before we train wreck our relationships, and they listen to the podcast. Let's go ahead and get into, huh, that hit the spot. So Julie, you brought us an article this week. Go ahead and explain kind of what you're thinking when you dumped into our lap the science, anthropology, I tell you the science of storytelling and memory and the impact on CRM. Give us the lowdown here.

Juli Durante 3:18
Yeah. So I actually had this article up when I got the note from you, George that I was choosing our article for today's podcast and said, Oh, what timing, I put it on the list before I even finished reading it. So that's always a fun, fun risk to run here. But I was pretty hooked right at the beginning. In the second paragraph, we talk about an experiment run. And it's described as a literary and anthropological experiment. So I said, Oh, great, we all need to read this. This is the recurring theme of our lives. But it's all about that experiment in particular was about does attaching a story to an item increase its perceived value and actual value and sales process. So can you see researchers spent $129. And they had a whole bunch of writers write emotional stories about these items. And then they attempted to resell them. And in the process, they increase their hundred $29 to about $8,000. All because they put stories on some of these items, which were weird thrift store finds all purchase for about 99 cents. So it was a cool opening that led into a lot of information about memory, storytelling, how stories work in our brains, and then some business applications of those stories, which is always exciting. The story is from the, which is conversion Excel, they do a lot of content like this around conversion optimization, which is a conversion rate optimisation is CRM. So it's this idea of can you make changes to your own web presence to influence the behavior of your buyers and improve conversions, which is something I like to think about and do and approach. So they have a business use case here, which is a campaign starts with a storytelling campaign a little bit from Men's wearhouse and then goes into a bit of a deception of the on site experience. If he were to continue clicking through and going on this journey with Men's wearhouse, and some good things, maybe some improvements that they could make, there's a little bit of a competitive comparison there, which I always like to see, a lot of what is described in this probe this post is the approach that the Excel encourages marketers and optimizers to take in creating basically conversion paths. But what I really loved was one line in, I don't know the late conclusion late ending of this post after the case study after everything else. And it's if you look at consumer behavior as a story, you realize, for them, it's all about experience. And we've talked about experience a lot on the podcast. But thinking about consumer behavior as a story was something I really liked. It reminded me of when I was doing a lot more persona research with clients. And we would have great debates as to whether it's better to write your persona work as a story or as bullet points so clients can understand what those bullets are faster. And I was always partial to the story. And I had never really thought about why other than I tend to write things better in story. And I tend to forget things when I try to write bullet points. I just like prose, and I thought that was just my background. And I guess there's some some science here that says maybe not. So just that was a good read. It's a little bit of a heftier lift. I'm sorry for giving everyone so much content to consume, but lots of juicy bits in there. I think,

Doug Davidoff 6:19
what was the aspect from that? That on the sites, you said that you used to think x? But now on the science? Maybe not? What was that? What was that observation?

Juli Durante 6:26
No, I think I just didn't really think about it from like, I thought, I just felt like stories were better. But there was no actual background for it. And it was debating opinions, but thinking about story as more memorable and more accessible than just facts Make sense? I'm not a good fact, remember?

George Thomas 6:42
Yeah. And the older you get, the harder that is, I'm just gonna throw that out there. But I love this because the first part I want to back the train up a little bit where you're talking about the the experiment of the items, I want everybody listening to realize a there's a TED talk where a gentleman uses this, this story, and he shows some things. These are pieces of crap people, these are 99 cent pieces of crap that when they put them on eBay, and they put a story around it that ended up going from like 99 cent pieces to like 100 hundred and 20 180 $200 pieces that like people are like, Oh, this is amazing. And when you look at the article, you'll see this piece of crap, like horse head that's chipped that costs like nothing.

Juli Durante 7:30
I think the horse hat is great. I think that's a statement piece above the mantel.

George Thomas 7:34
I'm gonna try to find the TED Talk. I'll link it up in the show notes. This article will be linked up in the show notes. I did I love this and it's early in the thing but it had me this whole article had me at this quote, The universe is made of stories, not of atoms, and from somebody who loves to create content, somebody who I love story, like I my wife will tell you she's like, why does it always have to be a production? Like why? Why can't you just tell somebody like the thing you got to turn it into a story the story always gets bigger like baby that's just how I made like, I love story and it's just a world of difference like you you said in your part there of like bullet points versus like actually reading something you know, there's there's books for a reason. There are there are multi billion dollar movies for a reason there are we spend X amount of time on Netflix or Amazon Video for a reason. And sure there it's nice to have these facts in there. But if they're not wrapped up in this nice package, it's super hard to just like stay involved for a very long amount of time. I like this the fact that you're talking about conversion rate optimization in the article because I'm curious when we get down deeper and dug I'm about to release you to the world by the way when we get down deeper into if we can get into analyzing the reporting what you would say like from this article or thinking of this article and a analyzing or reporting on CR o if there's like some dots that you are connecting or anything like that, but Doug, what were your thoughts on this article this week? First

Doug Davidoff 9:15
of all, I love the article it's the face my favorite article that's been shared in in all of our articles Julie you really lay down you drop the gloves there on this you raise the bar for the articles that we're going to bring out so I'm gonna have to go into my my deep archive of articles for the next time I can't wait to get into the deep archive. I will say that anyone that ever watched Seinfeld already knew that the first part of it was true. The whole j Peterman catalog was based on the the silliness of storytelling. I'll tell you, I love the first part of the article. I really liked the last part of the article. I hated the middle part of the article, which was actually what the point of it was for a couple different reasons. One is okay, you're talking about men's wearhouse. It uses Men's wearhouse as an example, which is a high transaction high utility. sale, it's built on the idea, you know, no one goes to men's wearhouse because they go, you know, what I want to men's wearhouse is very utility driven. So if you're gonna know Men's wearhouse does a good job of having a story element. I think that the conversion rate optimisation of storytelling the way that they did that really transaction alized it and this idea that, that the story goes here, and then does the story continue. I felt like that was a little bit of a Hey, we got a great theory. Let's Let's, you know, let's apply it to this. So you got a comment on that?

Juli Durante 10:32
Yeah. So one of the things that I love just the Excel content, I think it's great in their courses are amazing. They have a heavy bias towards e commerce in their audience. And in their SEO content, one of the things they always have to look at is like, Well, does this apply to other types of things? But I saw this example. And I wrote in my notes, like, I'm like, is this a stretch for eecom? To attach it to a story? Are they using ECAM? Because that's who their audience is, and will want I did like the competitive comparison, though. I liked that they included that because I think people forget sometimes to think about what their competitors are doing for a similar audience.

Doug Davidoff 11:08
I'm on record as saying that I think that the biggest growth area in sales and marketing over the next five years is going to be the you know, every every great sales and marketing team is going to have a behavioral science group. It shocks me that behavioral science is missing from virtually all sales and marketing. You know, I think the science of what was shared in here was great, I think that you need to I think it comes down to what Julie said, I know that stories work is not the same thing as knowing why stories work. Right. And and so you know, understanding the why understanding that you know, what, we have a brain we have a chemistry there's there's a component that goes in now I don't love the statement, the world is made of stories, not of atoms, it actually is made of atoms, just so I get I get the point. But But the other the other aspect of it is is what we don't, and this is going to sound really geeky, but we are electrical machines. We are adaptive complex, electrical driven machines actually the wrong term. I don't I don't know what the right term is. And so what happens as different aspects of the brain begin to get fired different electrical responses happen. So it's actually you know, what I would say is stories, trigger atoms, stories, trigger electrodes and understanding that stories frame and so the reason that it like the reason that I didn't like the example was it began to say nothing Wait, does this apply to what I'm doing stories frame everything, like everybody lives a story, that's like, you have to understand that we are all living our story. And if you want somebody to change their decision making components change their story, right, so that that whole story is a big piece, the thing that I do want to be careful about, we make stories so big sometimes. And I could see a lot of people reading this and looking at, you know, production value. And you know, stories don't have to be big stories, or I'll tell you the gonia the greatest story, I think that was ever told that change the future of the world, we will, we will put a man on the moon and returning safely. By the end of the decade. That was an amazingly powerful story. It has a beginning it has a middle, it has an end. It has a hero, it has an enemy. It has contrast, it has an objective, it's clearly understood, it's aligning, right. And that was a story. By the way, I had a chance to talk to one of the NASA engineers responsible for the space program. And he said that the story was actually really important, because the element that we spent about 80% of our time on was return him safely. We figured out how to get him to the moon. It took us about two to three years to figure out how to get him to the moon. And he's you know, he's short, you know, took us about seven years to figure out how to get him back safe. Right and and so those elements become rallying cries and they create we all live a context and story creates context again, so I thought it was it was a brilliant piece. I think it connects an awful lot of dots. I love the research that's in it. I thought I thought the end you know, it's funny, cuz you said I apologize for dropping such deep content on you. And I know you're kidding. But I also go like that if you want to know what has me at my highest level of frustration right now is we all agree that we're we're competing in difficult times. And by and large I think most people that are out there running businesses running departments were really smart. Right? So if this if there was some easy answers sitting there some some nugget of a take that doesn't make you think like we would have figured that out by now this like anyone who doesn't read this article. This is my seal of approval. Anyone doesn't read this article isn't serious about growth.

George Thomas 14:26
Uh huh. Dang. Dang. Now, I do want to point yeah, that that's like, that's a gauntlet right there. That might be a clip that we have to pull out and just put on the interwebs to get people to go over to this episode. And now I just want to pinpoint just so I know the viewers, the listeners, both of you said I don't like the middle. I like the ending. Would you say the ending starts at the point where it's like how the human brain decides what is important. That's kind of like the ending piece and where they're talking about attention encoding, storage retrieval, like yeah, That on is ending. Yeah, because it's mind bending like there are charts and graphs in here, people that if you're not stopping, and I agree with you, Doug, like stopping to think and Julie and I, on a previous meeting, nothing to do with this show, I was talking about how there's this thing that Brian Halligan tweeted out the the, you know, the, the top guy CEO of Spotify was like, about taking time to actually think and how a lot of people aren't taking time to think and it kind of leads into what you were saying. But like, there's this graph in here, where it's like sensory and short term and long term and explicit and implicit and like, ah, like, there's just so much in there that you can get, like super nitty gritty, you have to check this out. Definitely the bottom part where they start talking about these different stages and examples. The other thing I love about this is there's a good amount of videos, and I love videos like so it gave me time to like read and then watch a little bit and think and then read and watch a little bit. So definitely, definitely check it out. Any

Doug Davidoff 16:00
Yeah, go ahead, Doug. This reminds so I read a book a few years ago called thinking in bets, which is an amazing, amazing book. And it was one of those books that I think I read probably about 20 or 30 books as a result of thinking in debt, because every time that the Annie Dukes refer to the study, or the book where this came from, it's like, Huh, that's interesting, you know. So that led me to Thinking Fast and Slow by Danny Kahneman, it led me to Super forecasting, you know, this is one of those articles, it's got a lot of, you know, not only is there great value in here, there's great link there great links in here that take you to other Kate, you know, to other places to understand where those things fit. This is like, again, a really, really high quality piece. Thank you, Julie. I was glad I read. Yeah, well, you're welcome. I got a little nervous going into anthropology at first. But

Juli Durante 16:43
part of my objective and choosing our article was, I want to pick something that doesn't have to go and bring other research into

George Thomas 16:50
Nice, nice, lovely day you did. I think this hits out the park, I think it totally hits Oh,

Doug Davidoff 16:57
Max is calling max.

George Thomas 16:59
It's not it's not max totally hits out the park without a doubt. So so let's continue on the conversation. But let's tweak it a little bit. And let's move into in the spotlight where one of the things that I wanted to talk about was like kind of analyzing or reporting. But But let's take it this way, like when you think conversion rate optimisation and you think maybe tools that we may be able to use or a mentality that we should have or, or things that we should be looking at what comes to mind from a reporting standpoint, or analyzing standpoint, with this whole kind of conversation that we're having Julie or Doug, whoever wants to go first.

Juli Durante 17:37
So for me, the big picture with conversion rate optimization, or CRM is optimizing the right thing. So for example, if a lot of people think about conversion rate optimisation on in terms of the actual kind of end goal conversion, making a purchase, completing the form, clicking the CTA, but it can also happen elsewhere in your marketing. So one of the things that we sometimes have to look at is, hey, you're maybe ranking quite well, in organic search for this term, maybe you're ranked third. But when we look at Google Search Console, your click through rate for that term is very low. And we actually looked at the meta description that you have on the site page that's ranking. And it says, add this description later, or something like that. And our hypothesis is that you'll actually see more traffic to that page, if we improve that meta description that shows on the search engine results page. And then by getting more traffic, as long as what we're seeing on site continues and stay steady, we don't actually have to improve anything on site, you will get more of whatever the objective is. So a lot of times, I give that context, as an example, to explain that a lot of times, we optimize for the forum submission for the purchase for the add to cart, but we forget that you could have the world's most amazing high converting website page. And if people don't go there, it doesn't matter. So it's you have to optimize for the right piece of where you are right now. And the other thing I think about is that optimization is not global. Right? optimization isn't best practices, optimization isn't Oh, the you know, the forum placement on the right side of the page worked really well here. So it should be there everywhere on every page ever. Right? It's asking a lot of questions, a lot of why questions and then running a lot of tests and hypotheses to see if things work, but you need to have the rest of the pieces to support it.

George Thomas 19:26
Yeah. I love that. And by the way, Doug, I want you to go but Julie, the fact that you brought up meta descriptions, like please buy all that is holy, if you do that,

Unknown Speaker 19:35
are you George Oh my God,

George Thomas 19:37
if you're a marketer, and you have not been paying attention to your meta descriptions, like please go look at them because like, here's the thing. It's funny because most people will just kind of like throw them out super quick. They're like, they're their big piles of doodoo because they don't realize like you spend all this time writing this blog article or you spend all this time creating this page or you spend all this time and then you're Like, oh, yeah, 30 seconds for my meta description and you're not, you're not paying attention to the power that that thing has. And you know, I'm, I'm a big believer in that. Like, if I'll give you an example, like when I'm at the grocery store, and I'm being vulnerable here, I'm being vulnerable. I'll be standing at the grocery store. And before I know it, I pick up the National Enquirer, and I'm on page 17. Why is that? It's because the title, right, the way that they what they did on the cover, enticed me to pick it up and read it. I know, it's crap. Are you? Are you using your meta descriptions to entice people to actually come to those pages, like Julie said, right. And so one of the things I love to teach folks, when we're teaching about meta descriptions is start with a question and end with a tease. Because what that does to your mind, is like you if you end with a tease, like if you if you write it in a way where you're like, ah, I don't know, like, you're forcing mentally the click. And so I'll start with a question. And with a tease, it's always invoking some type of emotional response. And it always has to keyword phrase, I'm trying to target in those meta descriptions anyway, this isn't a class of meta descriptions. Doug, what are your thoughts? When you think of analyzing reporting tools mentality around CRM,

Doug Davidoff 21:13
I'm the sales guy here. I know all this meta, this description that you're gonna start talking about before? I know, we're gonna be talking about alt tags, and I'm going to be

George Thomas 21:20
Oh, yeah, let's do it.

Juli Durante 21:23
Oh, do you see that could be a whole, a whole thing.

Doug Davidoff 21:26
So I I'm not a fan of conversion rate optimization, because I think I'm talking about how it gets applied. I think, I think it's one, I think it's a wonderful theory, I think Amazon probably does an extraordinarily good job. I think the first thing when we say conversion rate optimization, it shouldn't be this, but it immediately goes online. And everything you guys just talked about was all about online. And it was all about measurements online. And I'm not saying that, that doesn't matter. But I'm saying that's a piece of something. And it's and it's a very variable piece to other people. So my fundamental concern is, and this will connect to reporting, as I don't I think that conversion rate optimization, and I would say reading this article, it would apply, but it's not really about conversion rate optimisation, its conversion rate efficiency, which connects to your point, which is it's about higher conversion rate means it's optimized. But what if lower conversion rate was actually the more optimal, right? It doesn't nine out of 10 people? Well, George, if you look at what what Julie said, if we if we improve the meta description, and look, I'm no expert on meta description, so I can be wrong. But if we improve the meta description, we're going to drive more traffic to the page, it's going to show up better people are going to be enticed by it? Well, I'll tell you what, I'll bet you that your conversion rate will now go down, because you'll entice people that maybe that's not exactly what I wanted, or maybe that's what I wanted, and I don't want something else, your throughput will go up. But you'll get you'll generate more conversions. If your goal is to get an action on that page, the best way to increase a rate is to lower the denominator like so closing rate optimization, just ask fewer people to buy, just wait until they're there's a pen in their hand, and they're writing a check before you ask and your closing rate will go up. It's been one of the things I know about a sales team that's not producing and it's over capacity is their closing rate is too high. Right? So you know, optimization is optimization is about finding that optimal place, given the complex, dynamic and adaptive system that we operate in. It includes looking at things like opportunity costs and, and situations. And I'm sure that you're right, George, I'm just going to use the meta description example. Like I get it, I can't, I can't argue with the fact of that. But I also would understand why, like, I know, I've got a client that doesn't spend a lot of time on conversion rate optimization, and their website is legitimately not about lead generation there. It's not about finding new people, it's about supporting what's going on with them, because they work in a very defined market, their advisors in a very defined market, it's a highly relational driven piece. And it's the place where we, for lack of better word, you know, it's it's their community, there's not a lot of like, I'm not saying that adding new people coming in, wouldn't have help. But given that your resource constrained the time that it would take the time and allocation of resources to do X would take away from why which is, which is more important. And so you know, those are the places where I again, I love the idea of conversion rate optimization. But what happens with that, and what happens with too much of our reporting is what we do is we take Ace, we take something out, we create a model, which is like a map, we have to remember that the map is not the territory. So the model is never real. Then we identify key components, key metrics to give us a signal. And it's good arts law that says taking a good measure and turning it into objective destroys the measure, right. And so we begin to pull it out. And we begin to optimize for that thinking that the conversion rate of the page is the same thing as people moving through our binder, right, as opposed to it as a surrogate for that. And so I think that reporting and metrics tend to do certainly anything that is leading trailing indicators, metrics answer questions, how much money did we make last year? Got to look at a metric for that. Right. But I think the problem when we when we start going to leading indicators is that we look for data and metrics to give us answers. And I think data and metrics do a horrible job getting answers, I think they can do a great job stimulating questions, I think they can do a great job teaching hypotheses, right. But what we have to understand if we're going to apply data, right, if we're going to apply this thing called conversion rate optimization, we also have to understand its balancing component around constraints and bottlenecks. Because what we're looking for is maximizing throughput, right? That's what the objective is, how much value creative units so unified for service product, etc. With all this stuff I have, how can I maximize the the revenue that gets created from and I'll stop in a second, I'll give you a story that I'm intimately familiar with, because my brother's responsible for right for years and years and years, it was thought if you had a hotel or you had a apartment that you wanted to maximize occupancy, hundred percent occupancy was everybody's goal except 100. If you have 100% occupancy, it means you are losing money. As a matter of fact, once you get up above about 95 to 97%, occupancy, you are losing money. How can that be? Well, the reason is, if I have 100% occupancy, that means I've got a rate for whatever that room or unit is that everyone said yesterday, right? If I don't have a certain number of people saying no, so my brother created pricing and revenue management in multifamily when it when a closing rate goes up, if they start seeing the closing rate go up, the pricing system will drive the price higher to lower the closing rate, right, if a certain number of people aren't saying no, because the key to to to multifamily is I've got this building, they can produce a certain number, a certain amount of revenue in a day and whatever revenue it doesn't produce that day, it'll never have again, right? So how do I maximize the revenue for that day? Well, the reality is having about a 3% open rate demonstrates that you've gotten to the price level that units times rent is maximized, rather than just occupancy. occupancy is a measurement of efficiency and throughput as a measurement of how much revenue did this space generate today. And you've got to make sure when you're looking at reporting, that you're balancing those two things,

Juli Durante 27:20
I have a couple favorite CRM tests that you may like, Doug, I don't know. But there favorites of mine that I've been a part of are performed, because they're not about increasing leads or rates. One of them was they're both Senior Living examples. So I have some decent experience in the senior living space for some like high consideration purchases in senior living kind of high dollar Senior Living stuff. And in one case, we had kind of a contact page where we were sending PPC traffic. And the headline on our form was like, speak to us about something right, it was a very direct kind of best practice form title, here's the actions you take, please take this action, we had a decent conversion rate on the page and submission rate on that form. But we found that we weren't really driving a lot of SQL, right, the PPC traffic was going there it was submitting it was great. And then they were all dying in the sales process. So we made a big change. The big change that we made was, we started sending that PPC traffic to that individual is multilocation. So that individual communities homepage and every community had like 18 pages that someone could explore. And our lead volume heads say no, we want to send them right to the conversion page and maximize conversions. But what we found was that when we sent someone to the homepage, got them reading more content, having a higher kind of pages per session type of metric. And then finally getting to a contact page, the leads we got had a higher likelihood of becoming sales qualified because we were getting the right people because there are a lot of people searching for senior living. And not all of them are looking for this type of community, a lot of them might be looking for a my monthly rental or being or using senior living to mean 55 and over and things like that. So we actually weeded out a lot of volume, we lost volume, but we increase the sales team's ability to serve the leads that we're getting and the value of beliefs we're getting. The other one was a situation where and this is more specifically about the forum title, we again went to that contact page, and we took that forum title. And now people were getting there organically or through paid through navigating the site. And instead of saying contact us to blah, blah, blah. We said we're here to help. And the reason we made the change was it felt more aligned with the brand. And our metric for that test wasn't improving conversions at all. It was actually not losing conversions. So we said we want to make this change. And if this doesn't take away from conversions, because it's defined the best practice that's going to be a marker of success for us and in fact, it did not take away from conversions. We maintained where we were on a submission rate standpoint from that page and we said okay, this is great. We feel good about it from a brand standpoint, our lead still know what to do. We don't Don't have to have this like really literal kind of silly feeling form title that says people like, complete the form on the right to blah, blah, blah and doo doo doo. And it was fantastic all around. So sometimes the win is not winning, it's things not changing. So I like to think about not just the actual numbers, but also the behavior piece of it. But the Why are people not doing what we think they should? Or why are people doing what we think they should? And where are they coming from? And where are they going next? And what are the questions they're asking, as part of this whole thing?

Doug Davidoff 30:30
three key thoughts on on that? So first off, yeah, that absolutely on point, I also know from knowing you that, that when you're running those experiments, you need to be run, if you're not running multiple experiments around, you know, different aspects of that, then, you know, so there's an important piece there. Now, I liked what you did on the first one, and what I would say the way to improve your second test is you look at the issue around solving for a conversation, you know, a bonafide conversation. By the way, one problem with conversion rate optimisation is what's your timeline for conversion More on that in a second? So if you had said we don't lose any I would have looked at go How do we help to say what is the impact on leads that get to serious conversation, because my bet is aligning with the journey of a senior living buying journey, which actually happened in a really well weeding out the wrong people goes a whole long way. And so you may have actually lowered the conversion rate by increasing the quality conversion that you would have lost the question to me would have been do we lose any quality conversion, not just conversion, which, which gets to my last point about senior living, there is a three year education familiarization comfortable ization period, because it's an exceedingly emotional issue where people don't so the senior living journey is actually started by typically as a child of the parent that's going to go into senior living and and they're almost ashamed in doing it, so they don't want to identify themselves. So if I were and I'm actually speaking at smash next week, love Smash. If I were to bring this up, if I were running an experience, I were running PPC, my first PPC campaign would pay zero attention to quote unquote, conversion, because my entire goal with that would be retargeting, right? I want to be on your radar. I want to be there because you're going to come that journey is going to be think about it fall back, mom fell down, oh, gotta look at this mom got into a car accident, then it goes back to zero. And so as that journey ebbs and flows off, I want to be on the radar. And that and that radar, by the way, is not email because that email is going to be a little bit more directional. Hey, I'm not ready for this. I still don't even want to admit, I'm looking at it. It's almost like wait, if you see me looking at it on my computer screen, I'm going to change browsers real quickly. And so that retargeting value like that PPC value? It has its biggest impact, probably three years later, right? I you should be able to trace it back. Right? But But when people look at conversion rate optimization, right, so so it's about those tests are awesome. In sub segments, we have a hypothesis of a three year journey, we're going to test we're trying to test what can we do between here and here, that's looking at that full model. And I think that's, that's what we need to get from our reporting. And too often our reporting is falling into efficiency over all else, and it's killing it. It's killing, it's actually killing capitalism. That could be a story for another day, but it actually is efficiency. The pursuit of efficiency is now killing capitalism.

Juli Durante 33:23
And and Doug, I think, since you know, the senior living space, I'll give you this detail. In this case, the client was actually a ccrc, or continuing care retirement community. So from the time of contact, the expectation was that the sales process was 18 months. So that's the sales process, even the researching process, some of the monthly communities move a little bit faster from time of contact, but that one was a doozy. But I love the senior living space. I'm happy to hear you're speaking at smash, I have a friend who's speaking there as well. You know,

Doug Davidoff 33:51
we're killing our buyer journeys, because we're using all this reporting to optimize. And the way you optimize, like I said, reduce the denominator and pushes you further and further and further to the end. Right. And so and so we're more and more sales and marketers, we're only competing in about 10% of the journey.

George Thomas 34:06
So a couple takeaways. One, you guys just told some great stories, too. If we only had one listener, I would continue to do this podcast so that I could sit at the feet of Julie and Doug and listen and learn about all these things. Doug, you love to change words. By the way, I've learned this about you over the last couple episodes. today. It was not conversion rate optimisation. It was conversion rate efficiency. You did the same thing last week on the episode, but I'm not going to tell the viewers and listeners what you did. They have to go listen to that or watch that episode. Because you're like, no, it's not this word. It's actually this word that we should focus on. That's interesting. I don't know if you've realized that about yourself, but I am like, okay, like he likes a tweak, like the thought on these things. And and here's the thing. The other thing that I will say is that when we get into a company It is amazing to me how and this one was the same way how you're right, Doug, we have a marketing conversation. And our mind goes directly into these things of marketing and digital. And because that's where we've been for the last since 2012, or 2010, or however long and it is refreshing to have a space where we can then be pulled out of our marketing mire, if you will, and get a glance at sales and how sales would look at it and the things that sales would say. So with that said, believe it or not, we have hit over our timeframe. So if you have questions for Doug, if you have statements for Julie or statements for Doug and questions for Julie, it could go either way people make sure you're hitting us up on the Twitter. She's at real Julie D. He's at Duff. I'm just little me at George B. Thomas. I will say this anybody who's listening to this episode, I do want you to tweet at max Jacob Cohen say congratulations for the new bambino. And while you're doing that, folks, we'll be waiting here for you in the next episode.