The Spot EP3: Customer Retention, Sprocket Talk 2.0, & INBOUND 2020


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, we find out some new passion points of the team. Juli wears a hat and has questions!

That Hit The Spot

In this section, we dive into a conversation around customer retention like no other.

Check out the article.

Make sure you let us know your thoughts on this subject!

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot, education ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie, Doug, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right You ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Honey spot go Alright folks, we're back. And in this episode, we're gonna talk about customer retention, sprocket talk 2.0 inbound 2020 interviews and of course converting more leads but more importantly, you know we should talk about right now this very moment team has a hat on. Julie is actually part of the bro squad with the hats on the spot. That's amazing. It's amazing. It did it.

Doug Davidoff 1:09
You look good. Julie, you look good.

Juli Durante 1:12
Thank you. I've been told to have a good head for hats.

George Thomas 1:15
Yeah, well, there you go

Doug Davidoff 1:17
like apparently not flat brim hats. According to you

Juli Durante 1:20
know my face is too small for a flat brim. See I can't

Doug Davidoff 1:24
really do this flat brim either. It takes guts. It takes guts wear flat brim, know about it.

George Thomas 1:29
I just yeah, I'm with Julie on this one. I'm with Julie on this one. So let's go ahead and get into the good stuff, guys. First of all, there's a new little section we're calling spot that news because there's some things that we want to talk about as Doug flattens this bell. He's like, let me let me do this throughout the show. Here's the thing. Big news sprocket talk 2.0 launched earlier this week. The reason that I'm telling you as a viewer or listener and this really is more for the listeners who are listening to the podcast on Their audio device on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher, yes, we're on all those places. I'm telling you this because if you go to sprocket talk 2.0. And in the main menu there shows and under shows there's the spot. And you can go and watch the video version of this as well as I've not told many people this I'd leave other secrets, tips, little things in the show notes that we might not talk about during the episode. So you've got the things that we talk about. But then there's other things that I'm putting there just because well, I want to that's why the other thing that I'll let you know is that we have been doing inbound speaks interviews, because that's right, it's inbound. 22 By the way, team, who is excited about inbound 2020 this year? Me?

Max Cohen 2:48
Yeah, I'm pumped.

Doug Davidoff 2:50
Yeah, I'm excited but it's a different it's a weird excited. So talk to me about literally excited, I'm virtually excited.

George Thomas 2:57
So talk to me about that because it's something that I've been trying to unpack myself as somebody who has been going to inbound since 2012. And now doing it here in my office, like talk to me about digitally excited duck.

Doug Davidoff 3:16
Well, you know, I'm a huge I'm a huge fan of ritual. And I think we, you know, especially with celebrations and, and things that matters, there are rituals behind it and and one of the elements of a conference is there is a ritual that you pack up and go to you plan for you think about it, you clear time you have all these things that they kind of anchor it. And I actually think the biggest thing that's happened in this know travel world and why everything feels so compressed is even if you didn't travel a lot every time you left, it kind of created a chapter it was like a marker that you could, you know, just kind of broke up things if you will. And so it's like you Usually I have to know when the the the conference is, by the way, it's gonna be very sad next week. Because next week is the week it was supposed to be. Think about that for a minute. So yeah, so it's like, I know, like a, you know, when you say, Are you excited for 2020? My immediate answer is yes. I'm always looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to see some of the adjustments that they're making and how that plays because I know they're really trying to do some, some cool things. But I almost also then like, right after I say, yeah, I'm excited. I go, Wait, when is it? You know, in terms of time, and so it's a it's interesting, and we're just beginning to talk about it with with with my team and, and usually we're excited because we're, you know, we're distributed. So that's a time that we're all going to get together. And so it's Yeah, it's I'm excited, but it's different. So yeah,

George Thomas 4:52
yeah, I totally agree with you. And here's the thing. There's 38 days at eight hours, 15 minutes and 56 seconds before the end. Actual inbound kicks in just so we know. But Julie, talk to me about like, what are your thoughts with this kind of change of digital inbound not getting together with team members stop me through that.

Juli Durante 5:13
Yeah, so I was really looking forward to in person inbound this year because it would be the first year I wasn't working a booth in a mountain in quite a while. The last I think three that I attended, I was at a booth talking to people, which is always great, right? Just talk people out marketing and HubSpot. And then people have seen it all on the people who are brand new, and it's a fun experience. But it means you spend a little bit less time learning and developing and networking yourself, right, because you're representing a brand so to speak. So I was looking forward to not doing that and experiencing the attendee version of inbound again. Obviously, we're having a new attendee version of which is pretty cool, too. And I'm actually excited for all of the people who are able to now attend because inbound is a bird Event who normally wouldn't be able to get the time couldn't afford the hotel room wouldn't have the budget work to go right. It's opened up a lot of opportunities and even just for my team at impulse creative, right, normally we may not be able to send everyone. Right, so we might have a select number of team members stowing and sharing notes and covering each other's sessions and things like that. But now, as many people it's so much more. What's the word? affordable? Yes, but it was accessible. Yeah. And that's pretty cool. I think that's gonna move the needle for a lot of people.

Doug Davidoff 6:36
I might actually see a session this year. Yeah. Yeah, cuz I don't think I don't think I've left. I don't think I've been out of club inbound in the last three events. And I had not had a booth that might have been at a booth.

George Thomas 6:47
Yeah, that's the thing. The thing I'll miss the most. By the way. It's the hallway moments. Like they're like, I don't give a crap about going out to my hallway. I'm going to see my wife and my kids like so. I'll be in sessions. The The entire time by the way, sessions will be happening September 22, through the 23rd. That's when it is but, but Max, like, give me your like, Are you excited about the 22nd 23rd? Like, what? What are those days look like for you?

Max Cohen 7:13
Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm honestly, I mean, I'm not going to have to be doing any like volunteering, like down there. Right. So my commute is now, you know, not going to be part of my inbound experience, which I'm super pumped about, because, you know, going there every single day, like I live outside of the city, and like, you know, the MBTA is reliable is not really the word I would ever use to our functioning is not doesn't come to mind. You know, but I think just like Julie said, like, it's more it's gonna be more accessible than it's ever been before, which is great. And, you know, the biggest part for me, that I think I'll miss about it is, you know, getting to see all the friends have made over the years in the customer base, right, like, that's where, you know, I had 90 days with customers to like, get to know them and forge these great friendships that have that have even lasted like years after I was you know, working directly with customers and you know inbound was always that time where I got to see all like the really successful ones that really stuck with it and are having a good time with inbound and even some that ended up coming and doing like talks, which was like super cool. So I'll definitely like miss that little piece of it. But it you know, I never really looked at it from the same perspective that Julie has had where it's like, now everyone can go and experience and I think that's gonna be super cool because it's inbound for everyone now, you know, not just the people who can afford to get out there afford to take time off work, you know, the people who can make that time in their schedule, right? So it'd be cool. I'm really excited to see what they put together. It's gonna be super fun that

Doug Davidoff 8:46
I'm gonna have to buy socks this year.

George Thomas 8:48
Oh, yeah. No free socks.

Doug Davidoff 8:51
Yeah, I got like four pairs of socks last year. Julie.

George Thomas 8:53
I'm gonna run out of pens. pens, stickers. Yeah, it's crazy. The thing here's the thing it it what blew my mind is it's the 22nd and 23rd I'm used to inbound being like three four if you put in partner day me like five days like you travel it. So it's two days. If that's not enough inbound for you, then you should check out what we're doing. We've got inbound speaks, interviews that started today. We've actually interviewed Theresa Heath wearing Will Smith, Jason falls and Andrea Cruz today and that will be releasing on sprocket talk comm again, those interviews, inbound interviews, where we give you little lessons on the way to inbound, September 22 and 23rd. Okay, it's time to go into our next section, which ladies and gentlemen we all know is um, that hit the spot. So this week max brought us an article max talked to us about where your mind went with service with customer attention and talk to us.

Max Cohen 9:55
Yeah, absolutely. So I pulled up this article here, you'll probably be able to find it in the show notes. We have no surprises from the HubSpot service blog. But it's called here's why customer retention is so important for ROI, customer loyalty, business and growth. And this article has a lot of really cool stuff in it, right? So it kind of breaks down a lot of the numbers a lot of the why a lot of like the hard data around like why it's important to take care of your customers, why it's important to retain them. I think a lot of folks, especially businesses I've dealt with in the past kind of view, and like hopefully this this outlook on this has evolved since I've worked with them but they kind of you the whole idea of like providing customer service, sort of like as an afterthought, right once we really nailed down the the marketing and sales and things like that, and hopefully that will keep us afloat for a long time, then we'll start to maybe think about, you know, how we're taking care of our customers or being there for them. They need us the most but, you know, those were always like kind of tough conversations for me to have especially when, you know service hub started getting molded into the picture and our conversations moved away. from not just marketing and sales, but actually having thoughtful conversations around why it's important to provide great customer service, right? A lot of people, I think, kind of look at it sort of as like, Oh, it's sort of like a Kumbaya thing or like, yeah, sure you want to take care of your customers, we all we all want to say that we all do that we all have great customer service, blah, blah, blah. But you know, it's it's, it really hasn't been a super big priority for a lot of the businesses that have worked in the past. And I think it's, it's, it's kind of wild, right? So if you take a look at this article, it lays it out pretty nicely. They have kind of a section at the beginning, where they define like, what customer retention actually is, if you're unfamiliar with like the literal explanation of it. They even give you some tools on how to like, calculate like your retention rate, things like that. They give you like a lot of great pointers on why it's actually important, why you should be paying attention to this, some benchmarks by industry, and a bunch of different strategies and it links to a ton of our other articles on the the service blog, so it's definitely worth checking out. But the The big sort of thing like I want to hear about from everybody is kind of how you've gone about these conversations in the past with other companies or clients that you've worked with. Because the way that I always kind of approach it is like I love using HubSpot motto, this whole idea of solve for the customer, right. And they kind of live by that, that mantra, and it's and it's true, and it's real. And everyone kind of breeds it there. So I like I love using that as an example. But, you know, what I've noticed is like a lot of businesses, when they hear that idea of solve for the customer, they kind of tack on their own little kind of premonition at the end of it, where it's like, you solve for the customer at the expense of the business. But in reality, you solve for your business by solving for the customer that happens in a number of different ways. You know, through adding value in different parts of the customer journey, and there's like a lot of I think tactics that go behind it, that make it a really important thing to think about just as much as your sales and marketing strategies and kind of what you're doing there. So I just wanted to kind of open it up and get thought from everybody else on, you know where your mind goes when you think of helping a business, shift their mindset away from customer service, or even support, however you want to think about it being an afterthought versus being an actual, like, significant part of your strategy right alongside sales and marketing.

George Thomas 13:21
So I can tell you one thing I love watching Doug think because like, I was wondering if he was even breathing there for a second. He was like, super still. And I was like, my is my dude. Okay. But as far as far as the article goes, Julie, Doug, I know I have some thoughts. But what are your thoughts as far as this article goes?

Juli Durante 13:46
I can kick us off, I suppose. So, I thought that, Max, your take on this was really interesting. And I had to almost remind myself for a minute that organizations are still thinking Have customer service as a call center versus a business builder, because my life for a very long time for probably most of my career has been in businesses with a service component. And now, as much as I'm here, on the spot representing marketing, my job really is a client services role. Right? So I don't separate client services from business anymore. It just is part of it. But then I was thinking back and some of the conversation that we had had last week around content marketing and blogging and blog length and all those things and solving for the customer can be as simple as asking yourself when you write a blog post, do my customers care about this? And if the answer is no, then you should ask yourself why you're writing that blog. And if it's, my customers don't care about this because they've already learned this from me, and that's why their customers, and that's great content still right? If the answer is my customers, don't care about them. Because I'm writing this for a keyword, then you're truly not solving for the customer, by definition, and maybe you should rethink your angle on the content that you're producing. Right? So your customer should be the powerhouse of your marketing and your sales, your information source and you're, you know, a big driver of that strategy, not the,

the picture kind of off to the side.

And then when you're thinking about service, right, why do people continue to buy well in an organization like an agency, if you don't serve, you don't get renewals and your clients go away? And then you have to find more with a bad reputation. And if you're not necessarily providing service by definition, you could have a product I have a friend who works for a an organization that educates accountants and they know because they are a licensing organization. They know their entire world. They know everyone that they're trying to reach. They're licensed, they have a list, they pay dues, but they're selling them additional educational products. And their members have a whole choice of vendors that they can buy from. So they have to think and position themselves as, why would you buy from us instead of them because you're buying from someone either way, you have to do see us. You need this coursework. We already know who you are, we're not attracting you through marketing. So what do we do? How do we differentiate ourselves and service so come into the picture there and can't not do it?

Doug Davidoff 16:37
So I work with

multinational companies that have, you know, in the manufacturing and distribution space, and I solve an issue that takes place on the distribution floor, right. So I'm working with No, multi billion dollar plus companies, multiple divisions within them. Are you guys saying that my customers should be the powerhouse of my marketing into my customer acquisition strategy?

George Thomas 17:18
That's a long time

Juli Durante 17:22
for me to

Doug Davidoff 17:24
get what do you mean sit back?

Juli Durante 17:26
Get I think I need you to break down the question again. Like are you are you? Are you asking you as Doug your customer or you are a must immerse customer

Doug Davidoff 17:39
I'm, I'm just being a mythical business because sometimes we forget that there are companies that are outside of SAS and professional services that happens then they do exist. Sorry, I couldn't help it. Um, so I'm just playing a mythical customer that I you know, I sell to Johnson and Johnson, Mercedes Dollar General and I provide Now I saw a critical piece in in the supply chain, but it's a very small piece. It happens on the manufacturing floor or on the distribution floor. Is my customer the supposed to be the powerhouse of my sales and marketing customer acquisition strategy?

Max Cohen 18:21
Would they be the powerhouse? I'm not sure. Um, but you know what I say? I mean, what I want to think about, like, hey, there's probably going to be a lot of different things that could possibly go wrong with whatever it is that you're solving for or whatever, like solution that you're delivering them. Are there going to be people at your company that those people interface with? And, you know, you know, they're they are all human at the end of the day, right? And is there going to be value in like making sure that they have a good experience working with you and with your product? Absolutely. Like, even from like a retention perspective, if they're not going to go out there and be you know, They're not going to go on social media on their personal social media and tell people about how awesome that your specific, you know, tooling, or whatever it does for that part of their supply chain, you know, does wonders for their job. They have other people in that industry that they work with that may have similar, you know, things that they're doing, that they can speak either positively or negatively about based on that situation. And, you know, so I would think, would it be the powerhouse that's going to drive the entire thing? Probably not. But could it be make or break with new relationships that you're you're building within that space? And I'm sure it could, depending on the experience that they have with you.

Juli Durante 19:42
So I think when I say, powerhouse, I don't necessarily mean exclusively in like the idea of customer driven content and reviews and referrals and things like that. I mean, at some point, right. You're selling into Johnson and Johnson and you're selling to someone I don't know, maybe in procurement in supply chain, probably a very complex buying and decision making process at an organization like that. And you have to reach those people. And when you have customers, you still need to be on the radar, to some extent have those same people at other like organizations. And then you have your users, right, it seems like this is a situation where you have fire personas and potentially user personas. True, right? Someone, the person on the floor using the product is not necessarily your buyer. But your buyer at somewhere in that buying process cares about how that user feels about this part of their day and this problem being solved. And if you're not marketing and selling to all of that, that actual real world application. Yeah, I don't know what you'd be marketing

Doug Davidoff 21:00
George, what do you think?

George Thomas 21:02
So it's interesting because I know that you're trying to get us somewhere like, I know you're already like three steps into what you think. And and I, I honestly feel like you're there's this perceived thing of like, it just is what it is. And that's what it should be. And it's the inbound way. And there's this thing that I love about you, Doug, where it's like, just because somebody says it's supposed to be that way doesn't mean that it's supposed to be that way. So I agree with what Julie saying, as far as like, at some level. Like there's this core piece, it is the thing that you do, and there are these humans that wrap around it and have to attach to it and have to understand it. And so if we're looking at this from a power house from a content standpoint, and content actually leaning into education, I think that educating the people who are around the product or service that you sell can be the powerhouse However, do I feel like we're sitting here and saying that you have to do the inbound sales service marketing methodology content strategy that would work for a SaaS company? Because by the way, you leaned into that? Do I feel like we would do it in a way that you would do it for an agency? Because you're kind of leaning into that? No, I think it's different. I think there's a twist. But I do think that it comes back to that if you educate and serve the humans that are wrapped around the product and service that you sell, or provide that yes, that is going to be a powerhouse for your company. Now go ahead. Get your wet noodle out. Give me my 20 lashings.

Doug Davidoff 22:44
I don't I mean, I don't I don't disagree with anything that you guys say. You guys said. I will point out that what you guys said was far more tempered than what was initially said. It's far more tempered than what the article said and it's far more tempered. When you see somebody up on the stage and they talked about Customer Experience etc. So So first of all, yeah, retention matters, though I'll tell you if you're retaining 100% of your customers, you're probably not growing well. You're probably not stretching yourself. Right? So so we fall into this gap of, of, you know, if some is good, more must be better. I think we forget that people are actually relatively like the equation for what people want is relatively simple. Right? I call it the Four Seasons experience. This is the definition of the Four Seasons experience, right? People want what they want, when they want it, preferably without having to ask, they want no more, and they want no less. And the Four Seasons gives a great experience. But you know, who else used to give a really great experience? Walmart. Walmart gave a four seasons experience the president of Walmart's growth. Free division more than a decade ago was at a business conference. And he asked the question, he said, I'm curious how many of you here live paycheck to paycheck. And surprisingly, no one raised their hand at this conference. And he said, I don't want you to misunderstand what I'm about to say. But we don't really care whether you come into our grocery store or not, because we don't exist for you. We exist for the person who lives paycheck to paycheck, which that used to be Walmart's customer. So we exist for the people who live paycheck to paycheck. And so if you come into our grocery store, we have the $8 frozen pizza. But where we really spend our time is to find that 50 cent pizza that still has good taste. Now, I hate Walmart. I can tell you, I've never physically stepped in a Walmart. Right? Walmart didn't worry about me and Walmart didn't try to exceed their customers expectations. By the way, the worst thing that you can do from a business perspective Strive to exceed customer expectations for three reasons. Number one, it's really expensive. Number two, it's not sustainable, because you create the expectation of exceeding expectations. And I asked you, how can you exceed my expectation that you're going to exceed my expectation? Right. And that's why you see real hot burning love. You know, they come in hot they go out claiming. And here's the other interesting thing. If you look at the actual data of spending patterns, you'll find that cset scores don't have a lot to do with whether or not people very satisfied people go elsewhere. And dissatisfied people stay that you know what the number one component and actually NPS doesn't even give you the prediction. Here's the number one thing that is now that the key determinant of, of loyalty and retention was the company easy To deal with, as a matter of fact, here's here's a crazy thought for everybody. Stop trying to deliver customer service and start trying to figure out how to not need it. Because what the research shows is every customer service interaction increases the likelihood of losing the customer. The only thing we do with customer service and customer engagement, I'm not saying it's not important, right? But the only thing we can do is hurt it. Now, if who are the companies that deliver great word of mouth, they they deliver on an expectation, Starbucks delivers a unique experience for the people who want a unique experience, right? Because if you're a Dunkin Donuts coffee person, you can't stand Starbucks. Right and vice versa. So the only thing I am all for. My only concern about salt for the customer is I think it's become it's getting really close to being a platitude. What does that mean? And look, I am I preach off for the customer, I think I think that was one of my gospels on the last spot. But, but that's got to mean something. And here's where I come from I, to me, it's really simple. It's Win Win or No Deal.

I'm solving for the customer, and I'm solving for the business and Maxwell disagree with you. You know what sometimes solving for the customer is at the expense of the business. Sometimes I got to say, you know what, that's not what we're here for. And I see a lot of mid market businesses get in trouble, because they're so focused on delighting before they know it. They can't deliver a consistent experience that by the way, that's the second thing. The thing that makes you really easy to deal with is when you're really consistent. I would say strive for consistency. Giving your customer what you want, you know what they want, when they want it, meet their expectations. You'll be in the top 2%

George Thomas 27:59
That's it. jesting because I think this totally ties into like knowing who you're for and knowing who you're not. A lot of companies don't want to yes and who are not for like, like service wouldn't have to deal with this, Doug, if sales in the front end would actually maybe think about, like, we should not sell this train wreck at the back end of this.

Doug Davidoff 28:18
So service starts at the very first touch point.

Max Cohen 28:22
Yeah, that mean that's that's the thing. Like, When, when, when I tell when I talk about the whole idea of solve for the customer with new hires, like, I'll tell him saying yes, all of the time to everything is not solving for the customer. You have to be okay saying no, you have to be okay telling them when they're making poor decisions. Because if you just say yes to everything and take everything at face value, and just say, yeah, customer wants, what the customer wants, and we'll just kind of go with that and we're going to be scared to push back. We're going to be, you know, timid to put our own, you know, ideas and thoughts and suggestions in there. Like that's that's when we stopped Solving for them, and we just kind of just say yes to everything. But the other thing that you mentioned too, how, you know, try to do as much as you can to avoid any sort of like, human to human interaction. We talked about this whole idea of like how customers help themselves. Right? And, you know, we specifically bring that up when we're talking about, like, why would you build a knowledge base? Why would you, you know, create all these resources so your customers can figure out problems on their own? I mean, it really makes a lot of sense, because you have to think about why inbound works in the first place, right? When you're presented with some sort of problem that you have. You go out on the internet or on Google or ask jeeves or whatever it is, and you try to find a way to solve that specific problem that you have. Just because someone becomes a customer of yours. Doesn't mean that natural inclination that we all have to self solve, magically disappears, right. Think about the last time you had a problem with your iPhone. If you immediately get on the phone Call Apple care. Now you probably Google it and figure it out on your own because you didn't want to talk to anybody. Right? So I think there's a lot in there in terms of like, helping them help themselves and get to a solve quickly without having to go through the rigmarole of waiting on hold, filing a ticket, getting on chat, and talking to another person so they can kind of move on with their day.

George Thomas 30:20
And that's huge. It's almost like Doug said, like, work on not needing it. Julie. It looked like you were like, one to put some some input in here.

Juli Durante 30:30
Yeah, I think there's some validity in this and there's some not. So for example, I probably spent the first two years that I used HubSpot. I called support a lot. It was also different time. The HubSpot methodology at that point in time was the the pillar page as I've described it in the past. There weren't knowledgebase articles there was not live chat. It was even before the time of the logs encode, where you could screen share with someone. And I spent many calls where you'd start the call and say, Okay, here are the five things that I did before I called you. This is a problem, we need to fix it. And in those situations, when a rep tried to help me help myself, that was very frustrating, because the information was not there to help me help myself. Right. And a lot of times,

Doug Davidoff 31:28
yeah. Can I ask you a question on? Um, we get to talk for real about HubSpot on the show. Right, right, George.

George Thomas 31:34
Yeah, yeah. For some

Doug Davidoff 31:37
degree. Did you like calling HubSpot support more or less five years ago to today? Which experience would you say was better?

Juli Durante 31:45
Five years ago today? I think it's the same a 2011 versus today. It was better in 2011.

George Thomas 31:53
I would even give a 2012 half of 2013 was bad.

Doug Davidoff 31:57
No, I think it's okay. Well, I think I mean, I would say easily five years ago it was. And I, and here's where I would say that that and I think HubSpot did a great job of their helpdesk, being a point of differentiator, because calling HubSpot helpdesk was the easiest thing to do. And because nine times out of 10, they would take the problem for you. They would say, Here, let me grab it, I'm going to work on it, and I'll get back to you and you're like, what, I was just hoping you would help me work. You mean you're gonna, you're gonna fix that for me? Oh, you know, right. And, and now it's more, it's become a little bit I get it because it's hard to, you know, to scale it up, and then you get the, well, you know, you can tell it's more script based, you know, all those things come in. The reason I brought this up is I'll bet that the underlying why you enjoy it like why you found it better before is it was easy to deal with. And so where I think you're getting at here too is which I would caution max on is just because I can do it myself doesn't mean that's the easy way to do it. Right. So I was just gonna I just wanted to like that that whole thing of how do we make it easy for people to work with us?

Juli Durante 33:11
Yeah, I also think from a service standpoint, does that kind of original HubSpot support so they weren't always easy to deal with. I once had a support Rep. have me make a change when the the new Oh gosh, I'm gonna call. The new landing pages editor was in beta, which is like four iterations on landing pages tool. But it was that first one like HubSpot three. I don't even remember what it was called at the time. But it was like the first version of what HubSpot looks like today was being put into beta where forms became a thing and templates actually existed and stuff like that. convinced me to make some changes in the beta for my pages, and it was the day of our company holiday party. And the support rep was like, yeah, you could just Which that is fine. Everything will be great. All your pages will go over to that template. I did it and all of my landing page and thank you page content got deleted.

Doug Davidoff 34:08
Yeah, it happened to me too.

Juli Durante 34:09
Yeah. So that was me at four o'clock day of the body columns problem.

It was it was not a good day. But there was such a high level of ownership. Yeah, that rap. That's really what I think made the experience for me and why I remember it is not that the rep was like, Oh, yeah, that can happen sometimes. Sorry. You shouldn't have done that. They went back and they restored backups and like, didn't know if they could do it and figure it out. Like, I don't know if that level of ownership would happen today with HubSpot report. HubSpot support, I might get more of the answer of, oh, that can happen sometimes. Right now, Crystal has revision history and things like that today. So we've built things but it's not The same is not quite the same experience when I call HubSpot support in the last three years maybe

George Thomas 35:08
Yeah, yeah you know you know it's funny cuz I love watching all of you during the show and and anybody who's not watching the episodes they're listening they should they should really watch because one of the things that our boy max CO and said, he said, I can't wait to like understand the partner relationship and like get it, you know, really understand this side of things. And as we're having a true conversation about HubSpot, I'm watching Max's face and it's literally like, oh god,

what am I What am I doing here?

Like, why am I here, Ron at all? Which is fun, though, which is fun, because it's literally like this window of like, oh, okay, interesting. So it's fun to like, watch this. Now I'm going to start with I want to say something on that though,

Doug Davidoff 35:57
because it gets to this point of what We always have a tendency to talk to extremes, because extremes help to learn. But hotspots, not the same business that it was three years ago, which wasn't the same business as it was six years ago if HubSpot tried to give the same support experience, so HubSpot has gotten a whole lot better on self service. Now, the problem that you and I have, Julie is that when we need help, we're not it's not surface help. Right. So that's where it gets a little bit, you know, gets a little bit frustrating for us and, and we remember the good old days, but but but my point is, yeah, HubSpot support. It's still exceptional, comparatively. But it's not the same support. And and I know for a while they tried to keep it that way. And I think someone in there finally realized, yeah, I guess we can't and my whole point of this is, you're always making a trade off. Right and, and that The danger if you go too far over here, there's a cost to it. That's why I say if you have zero loss if you have zero churn, you are spending way too much money on retention. You are losing money on retention.

Max Cohen 37:15
It's the physics of business.

Yes. No.

So and by the way, I'm here I'm here just loving this because like, Hey, this is this is feedback I get to take back to my you know, support traders that I work with very closely, right. So I love this. They're You know what?

Doug Davidoff 37:30
Sometimes customers are okay with being upset and frustrated with you for a moment. That's part of the game.

George Thomas 37:37
Absolutely, absolutely. Spot runs on feedback. Can you believe

Juli Durante 37:40
they friction? Oh, that another that's probably a different episode.

George Thomas 37:45
That's probably gonna Rosa Deaf

Doug Davidoff 37:47
didn't really have a thought about that.

Juli Durante 37:49
I have so many thoughts about that, Doug. I have so many thoughts,

George Thomas 37:53
then that's probably three episodes. Let's be honest. So can you believe that we've actually spent the entire time talking about About service and customer attention. And if it should be the powerhouse or not, it's amazing. Hey, here's the deal as we kind of close out, make sure you go and check out the show notes. Again, there will be secret tips additional pieces there. Max, Doug. Julie, any parting words as we send folks back to their regularly scheduled day?

Juli Durante 38:22
I don't understand how all of you wear hats all the time. I feel like my head is melting off of my body. Where does the air escape and I don't even have a solid hat. I'm wearing a trucker hat. This is so sweaty,

Max Cohen 38:35
central air conditioning one and two right there. If you saw my hair, you would understand why I wear the hat all the time.

I'll leave it at that.

George Thomas 38:46

Doug Davidoff 38:48
I don't think I can give any greater take home value than that.

George Thomas 38:52
That's it. All right, make sure you subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. Let us know what you think in your favorite podcast app. With a review or email us directly you can hit me up George's impulse creative comm or you can hit any of us up on the Twitter's. Julie is at real Julie D Doug is Doug Davidoff Max is Max, Jacob Cohen always say that from here on out. And of course, I'm George V. Thomas. Make sure you use the hashtag hashtag sprocket talk or hashtag the spot podcast if you'd like. Julie, did you see in the show notes that I said secret question. Really say it so here's the thing. What's one thing that any marketer listening to the show should do between now and the next episode? Hmm, check

Juli Durante 39:37
Google Search Console.

George Thomas 39:39
Love it. Until next time, remember to keep learning keep growing and of course keep doing some happy hub spotting