The Spot EP4: Inbound 2020, Modern Buyer's, & Mason Jars


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, we find out somehow 32 oz mason jars fit into Juli's Inbound awesomeness, Doug brings us an article on modern buyers and what sales need to know and, we wax poetic on our INBOUND 2020 thoughts.

Check out the Inbound Speaks interview series.

That Hit The Spot

In this section, we dive into a conversation around what sales needs to know about the modern B2B buyer. Buckle up because this gets interesting in a hurry.

Quote from the article:

"While motivation is necessary to overcome organizational complexity, it’s also no longer sufficient to follow through."

Check out the article.

Make sure you let us know your thoughts on this subject!

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot, education ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier and of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. All right, well then with that said, because now there's all smiles It's time for ready spot go and today we're going to talk about inbound 2020. We're going to talk about simplified versus complex we're going to talk about like oh well listen if you've watched the last two, three episodes Loads of the spot. You know, we're gonna pretty much talk about anything. So I have a question though, Doug, Doug and Julie, I figured it'd be fun to kind of start this off and we do this at impulse creative with our inbound standups. I wanted to kind of start us off with a talking point. And when I saw this question, to be honest, I thought of you, Doug. But Julie and Doug, would you rather if your only mode of transportation could be a donkey, or a giraffe and why

Doug Davidoff 1:30
I would have to go with a giraffe. Interesting because if you control the airspace, you control the game.

George Thomas 1:39
Very nice. Very nice Julie.

Juli Durante 1:43
I would also go with a draft but it's because drafts are my favorite animal and non negotiable you always pick the draft.

George Thomas 1:49
Ah, nice.

Doug Davidoff 1:51
So So everybody if you like what Julie has to say make sure you send her like a giraffe figurine or something she when she needs it for her background.

Juli Durante 2:00
Yeah, that'd be tremendous. I used to have a photo giraffe head made out of newspaper but I got rid of it

Unknown Speaker 2:05
is Jeffrey. Oh, um,

Juli Durante 2:09
you know, not my face. I was like, realistic giraffe

Unknown Speaker 2:14
less than the boys joke about toys. You got a giraffe and toys, right?

Juli Durante 2:19
Yeah, we didn't like have the budget for Jeffrey

George Thomas 2:23
mean, and see like I told you folks, we'll talk about anything. Now with that said let's rein it in and we'll go with that hit the spot. Doug this week, you brought to us a sales article, which was delightful. By the way, why don't you kind of explain to the viewers or listeners a little bit about the article on why it kind of brought attention and you wanted to bring it to the show.

Doug Davidoff 2:49
So this is like articles, probably about 1000 1200 words, something like that. But if you read the article, you've read a book on modern sales. So it's actually from Gartner. By the way, guys. is doing some great great stuff on insights and in several places but in on in the world of sales especially, it's what sales should know about modern b2b marketers. Here's a couple key points that I think if I'm sharing it because well, you know, George my role on the show is to is to break myths to bring counterintuitive ideas and there's a lot of counter to activity here. I love the first one because it's like a continuation of our of our last shot, right? Yeah, point number one is customer satisfaction doesn't drive growth. And so all this you know, over and above, above and beyond etc, statistically, doesn't actually have a role does that company do more business with you? complexity kills deals. Right and and what what you got to understand on the sales side about complexity is the b2b buyer perceives and the research shows 70% of b2b buyers feel that the purchase represents a meaningful change in their business. It doesn't have to have anything to do with what you're selling. You have to understand the impact that it has on them. Really interesting two things that I think really play off of each other customer confidence in their own decisions is crucial. Um, one of the things I teach when we do sales training or sales coaching, as we talked about, stop selling your stuff, just teach people how to make decisions. Customers who are confident in how they're making decisions are two times more likely to make a decision and, and to make a decision with you. What's more, customers perceptions of themselves is also crucial. Like, I didn't think about this until I saw it. They can look, they can trust you, they can think that you're wonderful. But if they don't trust themselves, it doesn't matter. Which is kind of like storytelling. Too many salespeople think they're Luke Skywalker, you're playing the role of Yoda be Yoda. The perception of the rep is critical, which connects to itself. You sell is more important than what you sell. The point that I love here was sales reps need a new strategy to engage customers, one that focuses ready every sales or marketing person listening to this, less on the brand. And more on how the customer perceives the rep. reps are now customers aren't actually skeptical. And one that's not new to me. But I would just love for everyone to understand it is thought leadership doesn't mean anything. Thought Leadership is not a differentiator. And by the way, there's research that shows not in this article, but actually thought leadership actually has a slight negative correlation to revenue success. It's not about thought leadership, it's about insights. So that's why I loved it. It's like a full story on if you just if you read nothing else and you read this article, and you applied it, you'd be in a you'd be in a good place.

George Thomas 5:51
So there's a couple of things there's there's some good things there's some bad things here. Part of this when it talked about brand I actually I could feel myself channeling My inner Remington bag because I think there's a large power of a great brand that can drip or lose on to a sales rep. And so there's a difference, Doug between trying to sell for, you know, Joe Schmo, you know, hardware, and then just being able to say Lowe's or whatever, right, there's, there's a difference because of the brand that's wrapped around there. I think, though, that you stole some of my notes, because I literally, like grabbed points out of this article that I was like, Oh, this is so good. And and hang on, hang on. I know. I know. You're ready. I know you're ready. But here's the thing. One of the things that really smacked me across the face was that quote that you put where it says, Hey, they might trust you, but they have to trust themselves. And I stopped and like, was like, Oh my god, like because we always talk about like, we're in the game of trust, right? Like As a sales rep as a marketer as a business, like if they can trust you, but we really never talked about enabling them to trust themselves in the decision making process. So that for me was like this, this little piece, but then at the very beginning, and you kind of gloss over it usually at the beginning of an article where it talks about in a world of information overload. And that's where we're at, like, we're just there, there is so much information, there's so much content being created. And and some of it is just to create content for creating sake, if you will. And so like for me, this article, while it is about sales, as a marketer, I was like, Huh, it almost puts a little tweak or a spin to the messaging or the content that you would put out. as a marketer, I would say,

Doug Davidoff 7:55
I want to hear what Julie says, but I want to I want to just reiterate one thing, the reason I like this article next year It is because it's not a sales article it is a it is a revenue article it is i don't care i mean if if this this is everybody in sales marketing service success executive team I mean like you he This is an article that you should read and and have a discussion in your company about about how does that apply to you etc. So, absolutely it It should impact marketers speaking of marketers,

Juli Durante 8:30
hmm good segue I like this one I was reading this I got that kind of like, good Tingley niacin feeling that you get when you drink a really good energy drink or something right. I'm very specific feeling if you're an energy drink drinker, you felt it. Hello over here. Um, so, what I was brought back to was something we talked about some marketing predictions and goals. For 2020, at the end of last year at impulse greater than it was right when I started with the team, it might have been slightly before I officially started with the team. And one of the things I had said coming out of 2019 was, I think I'm doubling down on content. And I didn't mean content volume. Hmm, I meant content quality. And as much as I hate this word, Authenticity, and I, there's a tie in, Doug, don't worry, I was with you. So when we talk about right thought leadership wasn't what it once was. The brand isn't the thing that people aren't necessarily buying. This the idea of a purchasing decision being related to a customer's perception of self. I think doubling down on content for me also kind of hits in those areas. And that's why I think it's important one of the things I think is most critical in this conversation is the idea of customer's perception of self, right? every purchase, you may says something about you as a human right. So whether that a business purchasing decision, why do I like using this tool versus that tool, for example? or Why do I like having this partner versus that partner? Or it's a personal purchasing decision? Why do I drink out of a mason jar and not a Yeti tumbler? Right, like there, there are things about that. I can have a 32 ounce water container in a whole number of ways, some brand and some not. Um, but I think what we can do as marketers and salespeople can be really thinking about what is the content I'm creating, what is what I'm putting out there into the world, feeding back into someone's perception of self and confidence. And that's an important time I don't always think about it. I don't think do you think Rand is important in that conversation? Right? Yeah, yeah,

Doug Davidoff 11:08
of course. Because, of course, you guys are gonna say that. And I'm not gonna say that brand does not matter. But But I also want to point out that if we're going to have this conversation, especially relative to this article, we can't talk about Joe Schmo as hardware or Lowe's because Joe's most hardware and Lowe's is not a complex decision. Right? But I'm not even going to go into beat it beat it rsby to see what we have to understand here is that a complex sale a involves multiple people and be involves change. Right? And so the like, I get, you know, the mason jar versus the Yeti, there's a status of that. And what I mean by that is it says something about you, you know, in that choice, if I drive a Mercedes or I drive this, it that brand says something about me, that's a tribe that you know, that's kind of a tribe effect. If you Well, that is mitigated when you're dealing with multiple buyers because now all of a sudden, you know, there, there actually is a lot of conflict around there that has to be mitigated, that drives that down. So let's talk about the ultimate brand and b2b, the ultimate brand in b2b in history was IBM. Right? Because everyone strives to be the IBM no one ever got far are buying from IBM. But let's look at his let's look at psychologically what the decision to buy IBM is right? The decision to buy IBM in their heyday was the ability to feel like I wasn't making a decision, it was opting out of making a choice, because it was the standard. I think I mentioned in a previous episode, the word homicide and the word decide have the same Latin root, they both mean the same thing. So brand has impact in the sense of in the absence of other things, all brand does is create safety. Brand creates a feeling of safety. So there is confidence there. Now, if you Look at the data around purchase decisions, what you'll find is brand has about an eight to 11% impact on choice, and it has that impact at the end. It is a Okay, I'm now making choice last piece. So if we wanted to apply job schmoes supply chain versus low supply chain, if Joe Schmo goes to market the way Lowe's goes to market, then yes, Lowe's will win every time. Because Lowe's is the Safer Choice. Hewlett Packard wins because it's the Safer Choice. IBM wins because it's the Safer Choice. Salesforce wins because it's the Safer Choice. Right? So that's that's one piece around brand. second piece around brand is there's a lot of companies. We don't have the reason I don't have the resources for, for me to have per se brand. I can't play that game. Right, I don't have the resources to do it. Now there's certain brain elements that I can take that can pick up. But the truth is most, most buyers, they're not thinking that they're not spending enough time on you to think about you to that point for the cost for us to talk about having brand effect, right. So that's kind of point number one on brand. You guys want to push back on that?

Juli Durante 14:26
So I sometimes think about brand in a very similar way to how I think about culture. Right? anthropologist Sorry, it's gonna bring it back their culture, pretty much by definition is nearly impossible to define and explain to an outsider, it's just something that you feel. So while we can identify brand and put colors or logos and taglines and build feelings and sentiments and those types of things and try to control it, there is this element of how do we We, as a company make a customer or prospect feel. And that's a little bit softer, I think, to me, and that's what I think is really important.

Unknown Speaker 15:13
Oh, sure, on that point,

Unknown Speaker 15:17
you know, we have to understand that we don't control our brand.

Doug Davidoff 15:22
They do. And, and, and so our brand is how they feel about what we do. So we should know what we want our brand to be, which should be, you know, really put forth as a statement of feeling, right? And then, to build that brand, what we should do is behave in the pattern that creates a high probability that people feel that way. So so for example, right, because I can't play brand the way people like I'm not going to have a brand like IBM, I'm not gonna have a brand like Appspot right, because that's what I'm talking about building the brand where your brand precedes you. Yeah. But what I Do is like, Well, number one, no one understand your customer better than they know and understand themselves, make them feel understood, stop making them understand you. Well, when I make you feel understood, you get psychological air from that you get more confidence in yourself. I teach people stop, stop selling yourself and start selling how to make decisions. Right? And so if we look at content, how much content is focused on either justifying the problem, or just talking about the solution, or just talking about the attributes, you know, does or at least did a great job of selling the decision. If you've ever been to Morton's, you've seen how somebody sells a decision because before you start, they say, Are you familiar with Morton's? And if you say no, they say, Well, let me tell you how we prepare our steaks. And if you say yes, they say, well, then you already know that we prepare our steaks and they go through its age like this, and it's done like this. And it's like this and it's and what they're doing is they're teaching you When it gets take is, and then you go wow, I am brilliant. Why? Why did you pay $50? For that steak? Well, you have to understand it was, you know, Kevin age log for 50 years. It came from Omaha, like I you know, I don't know. So those are the pieces that are that, you know, that's what creates comfort. Right What we need to do like that that choice is a very hard mental exercise and what salespeople and I think marketers as well, we try to power through it. We're so focused on increasing the promoting factors of why to take the decision like why to do this, that that we miss what is actually a bigger opportunity, which is how can we reduce the limiting factors that that prevent them from moving forward. The point that I was going to pick up on what Julie said earlier is on his put a confidence every decision you make about anything Some of your statement of who you are, it is a bet it is literally a bet on your future. Right. And that's why when we feel really good, we go out and we buy cars because the future is going to be better. We buy bigger houses, when all the sudden people start getting laid off, we start saving money because Oh, the future is going to get worse, right? And so if you want, like, no one is going to spend more than the perceived value with you. It's not going to be quantified like an economist, but their decision is a statement on their confidence about the future state, which by the way, it's why when you're in high change, high disruption environments, people freeze, because they can't make it that they can neither bet that it'll be better or that it will be worse. The person. The organization that controls the market is the one that controls the context. The greatest thing we can do from a marketing and sales standpoint, to grow business is to help Create the context for our customers. Because context is what creates confidence in making decisions.

George Thomas 19:08
It's interesting if I, as I'm listening, first of all, this is a master class and like the way that you you should be thinking because A, there's a I should make them feel this way which by the way, the word that keeps like coming to mind during this conversation is safe, like, they need to feel safe, right? And, and then there's a thing that you need to do, which the word that keeps coming to mind is simplify. Like, you need to simplify everything. The fact that Doug you said frozen, and when I think of frozen, I go back to that in a world of information overload. Overwhelmed b2b buyers face a crisis in confidence. That's what started this article, right? And so if you can make them feel safe if you can simplify the complex then And only then do they start to know that it's the best steak ever. Because it's like they're educated on that choice. It's it's this is this is amazing. It's It's amazing. Now, you did say one thing that I want to dig back up though, because you started to say the thought leadership portion of this towards the end of of your talk. And and I'm actually not going to go where I think you think I'm going to go because of the smile that just happened on your face. And by the way, if you're listening to this and you couldn't see the smile on Doug's face, you should be watching this at sprocket I'll just say that for all of you listening on Apple or, you know, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. There is this very interesting thing that I did an interview earlier this week with Bobby Carlton, she's an inbound speaker. We're doing the inbound speaks session now because inbound is coming and we're talking to those speakers. And we're actually talking about thought leadership from versus expertise or being an expert, and how those are two entirely different things. And she does a really great job of explaining the difference between an expert and the difference of between a thought leader. And so Doug, I'm actually going to agree with you that if you are perceived as a thought leader, there could be an erosion or a negative effect to that. In this process. However, I believe that if you are seen as an expert, and have expertise in that thing that actually will create that feeling of safety, because it's like Morton's, and it's, they're an expert in the steak. They're educating their expertise on that steak off and on. So one thing I will say as anybody who's listening this, if you're curious of the difference between thought leadership and expertise, go listen to the bobby Carlton interview. Now, Doug With that said, unpack what I just handed on your plate for you to kind of nibble on a little bit

Doug Davidoff 22:00
So the problem with thought leader and expert is that's about you. It's not about me. And, and what we have to remember, if we're trying to make a sale and that luminary data, we're trying to make a new sale, we're trying to acquire new customers. Again, this applies to more than just selling. What is inherent is, you we got to the point has to be made, whether we make it or customer, you know, someone figures out themselves, a decision has been made to change course and speed. Right. And so there's a psychological, so our brains don't want to think art, you know, actually thinking, truly thinking is a is a high, it takes a lot of energy to do that. So our brain does a whole bunch of things to trick us so that it doesn't have to really work. By the way. If I were to ask you a question, what's 12 times 18, your body would go through the same biochemical response that would if you were lifting weights, if you were Going max reps, you're going to go through your peoples you're going to dilate, all the all the things that happen go through the exact same exercise. And so what we do is we naturally take anything that we hear, and we apply it to what we understand. It's why there's the fact. Right, the the more competent, you think you are, probably the less competent you actually are. It's why it's like Wobegon, where 73%. Drivers are above average. What you see is all there is so there's a psychological principle. Daniel economy talks about it in the book Thinking Fast and Slow. It's called Prospect Theory. But basically what you see is all there is we have tunnel vision, because we live in tunnel. So we take anything that we hear, and we make it fit of your frame. So here's what thought leadership does and, and it depends how you define expertise, but also I'll talk about thought leadership. It says, well, you're smart. Wow, that makes sense. Right. And then I apply it to what I know. Right? Because it hasn't changed what I'm doing. What insights do is they break frames? So the takeaway from thought leadership is, wow, they're really smart. They're really good.

Unknown Speaker 24:18
Right? Inside goes way, I might be wrong

Doug Davidoff 24:25
way I'm, wait, there may be a problem. I caught the oshit moment right in its perfect place. So what an insight does is it breaks the frame, right? It causes somebody to stop and think and adjust. And it goes to how you sell is more important than what you sell. You have to change how they think about their situation, before they can change how they think about you. Right, and so expertise fills the gap. But I'm going through life making decisions as best I can, in the context that I can. And so I don't, I don't see the gap. Now, if, if I perceive you as having expertise, and I have a gap, and I've already perceived my gap, and I see those two things coming together, then yes, I see safety. Right. So yes, expertise will play off. And and and and just merely thought leadership doesn't play. But from a sales and marketing standpoint, you've got to figure out again, what talks about top of funnel and it's the lightest content that they use, hey, just use this one pager. It's really easy. It's, you know, two checklists. That's, that's, that's top of funnel stuff. And I'm like, No, that's the worst top of funnel stuff you can add. But I'm going to break I want you to explain. Yeah, you come to my website. You go, Wait, I'm thinking about it that way. Now, you know what? I don't get immediate response necessarily. But yeah, so that's why that's why I say come to my like, I tell my sales people all the time. Come get him to come to the website five times. They're ours.

George Thomas 25:58
Interesting. Julie, Julie, thoughts on that? Any?

Juli Durante 26:04
I mean, you said top of funnel content and I was instantly triggered. Um, I think people a lot of times think like, oh, top of funnel content should be valuable. Like it's the throwaway stuff that everyone knows and or like basic or quick and it's not necessarily thought provoking. So I'm with you there that, like I can create as an agency, right, I can create a top of funnel piece that's like some Google Analytics deep dive, but it's still top of funnel for me. Um,

George Thomas 26:39
interesting, interesting and

Doug Davidoff 26:41
thought leadership isn't not valuable. There's a lot of really great thought leadership. I mean, I've downloaded the PDF download the hell out of thought leadership. Mm hmm. Right. And I got great. It's awesome. I mean, we'd have to it doesn't change my Coursers pizza. Hey, I Do some thought leaders I download a lot of their stuff, I use it. Okay, let me look at that that's, you know, it helps with my thinking. I, it does nothing to make me say I should, I should talk to that. It does nothing to say I should buy from them. Right. And and so it, I take it and I consume it. And I mean, thought leadership is wonderful for traffic. And that's not a bad thing. Right? But it doesn't cause someone to change course or speed.

Juli Durante 27:28
Right? And as the article that you shared, said, it's not a differentiator anymore. You're not going to get more leads because you have more quote unquote, thought leadership content. You're gonna get more eyeballs, maybe.

George Thomas 27:42
Yeah, so now now and we may not have an answer to this, but because I love where we're going with this. My question then is, is if you think of this as a funnel, not a flywheel. Sorry HubSpot. But if you think of this as a funnel, and thought leadership is and can be the A great top of the funnel type content, and let's say expertise is kind of that in the middle because you can talk about No, Julie's like no,

Unknown Speaker 28:08
I disagree.

George Thomas 28:10
Okay, I didn't even take the sentence out, she just knows. Okay, like go go, go go,

Juli Durante 28:14
I don't think content type and thought leadership versus expertise versus this or that is funnel related at all.

Unknown Speaker 28:24

Doug Davidoff 28:26
I think the funnel is a horrible metaphor, I think I think we need to stop talking about the funnel. Because it's not a funnel, right? The there's two components to it, right? The first problem with the funnel is you can't adjust velocity. You only have two plays with a funnel, you can push and suck. That's the only two things you can do with a funnel. You push more in or you suck more out. That's what anything you go beyond that you're no longer dealing with a funnel, right? We're gonna manage middle of funnel, you can't man. You pour oil into the funnel in your car, try to manage the middle of the funnel and see what that will do. Right. So we are blown away the metaphor Right. I don't mind the flywheel from from from a growth momentum standpoint, what we're managing is bottlenecks. Right? So if you were to look at the the the stages of what are called the funnel, and you looked at them through bottlenecks and constraints theory, each one of those pieces creates a bottleneck. So So discovery is a battle, right? Do I know who you are? Do you know who I am? first action is a bottleneck. consideration and, you know, consideration is a bottleneck. Right? And, by the way, if consideration is my bottleneck, and I'm optimizing the hell out of my sales process, well, you know, that's wonderful. It's not going to change a whole lot. If consideration is my bottleneck, and I'm just jamming the hell out of lead generation and we are optimizing, it's not going to do a lot because the most you can impact the system. You've got multiple bottlenecks, but the constraint is where is that single place? And so if you don't understand where that is that you can't really make that right decision. Right. And so what you have is different processes that are operating on their own basis that you know. And customers by the way, they jump forward, they jump backwards, they, you know, and that that's what building a modern demand generation customer acquisition process needs to be.

Juli Durante 30:19
And it's not linear. The buyers journey is not linear. And I think especially when we talk b2b and higher consideration, sales processes and research processes. There's this great forest or buyers journey modeling example. And the whole concept behind it right is that not every potential business buyer is involved in every stage and every piece of this and every bottleneck opportunity, right? Some people get pulled in like it towards the end, because they're just saying, does this have the security features we need? Could I buy this? can I build this cheaper than I can buy it? Does it have the feature set does it integrate with X, Y, or Z or this or that thing, right? Some people started at the beginning and then drop off because they're a researcher for an executive. And they're not actually part of the decision making process except the decision to bring it to the executive team. And that's why I think when we say like, oh, thought leadership is top of the funnel, no thought leadership is all of it. optimization is all of it. It's all you have to be thinking about the entirety of this like crazy nonlinear thing. And we use final metaphors or flywheel metaphors or linear models or buyers journey stages, to help explain the initial concept, but it's not the practical application of the process. And it's not the practical application of use, or anything else.

Doug Davidoff 31:44
I'm going to say about this truly, because I completely agree with you that the journey is absolutely positively not. I'm not linear. I think it's the combination. If I were to describe the journey, it would be the combination of a pinball machine and a snowball. And my point there is a it's all over the place but and be the more I can be involved in the touch points, the more the snowball builds. So I have more mass, which means more predictability. And I think far too often we work we're trying to get to the point of decision with the least amount of of mass, if you will, for how a whole lot of things are happening. But so I agree with you completely, that it is absolutely not linear. And I also think that that fact is not particularly relevant when it comes to designing what your customer acquisition process is. Because what I'm saying is, if you look at it, as, you know, if you identify where your bottlenecks are in the manufacturing process of a customer, if you will, and you understand that each segment is kind of operating on its own picture like the lottery, ping pong machines as they're, you know, kind of going around until they pop into that, you know, into that next phase, and they might pop back and they might pop back multiple places and things like that. But you are at one of these points at any particular point in time. And then once you understand those points, there's a limited number of scenarios that are relevant for the context of why you're at that point. And so for me, I can still manage it in a in a staged fashion. That is, and I think this is where user design comes in so that you are able to easily and intuitively access the right place at the right time in the right context.

Juli Durante 33:31
Yeah, I agree. I but what I think what worries me about a lot of stuff that's out there about this kind of stuff is that it presents the buyers journey, it presents the funnel, whatever it is as a fairly linear process, in which people should not move backwards and forwards and bang around and do this or do that. And then when that happens, people get worried Right, it freaks people out that all of a sudden the person who I was talking to about this, like, what felt like a bottom of the funnel conversation is now going back and doing some additional research or kind of goes dark but stays around in my world for a little bit like well, but it's gone, it's gone, it's well around and things come back and you're right, like more touch points and better build this snowball and

Unknown Speaker 34:30
you know that that that is partly the way I hate the funnel.

Doug Davidoff 34:34
Because Because you know what I would say someone who's gotten to quote unquote, the bottom who then goes back to the top is in a distinctly different place than somebody who's at the top right there's there's a whole underlying context to what's happening with sales and marketing needs to do is they need to study what manufacturers learned in the 1980s. I think where we're moving where the reason that the funnel has come back in in spades and all the Linear perceptions and I agree with you i worry about it as well, is we are massively obsessed with efficiency. And so and so I think that the real underlying issue is less that it gets translated as it looks like it's a linear journey. I think the issue is it gets presented as though it's a simple journey. There's a beginning, middle and an end. So, you know, in theoretical Wonderland, everything is perfectly balanced. And if everything was perfectly balanced, then then these theories would work. What manufacturers learned was they generated, the more efficient they got, the more money they lost, right? Because they weren't understanding what the role of bottlenecks and constraints were. And they were actually doing the absolute wrong thing. In a situation it was very, very counterintuitive. And so I think, you know, if you understand bottleneck and constraint theory, which I realize most people that got into sales and marketing probably you know what One of the reasons they got into it was they didn't particularly like physics. They didn't like their physics class. They didn't like their, their trigonometry class. They didn't want to go into engineering. But really what is marketing and sales? It's an engineering function. Right? And so we need to understand what's happening there. And so that's where I think we you know, it gets into trouble because we don't understand where those bottlenecks and constraints come.

George Thomas 36:27
And like I said at the beginning, we talk about anything this has been an amazing flow of information over the last what 2030 minutes and you know, we even had a section that we're going to talk about measuring revenue but guess what, you're gonna have to wait for next episode to hear us talk about that. If you do want to hear us talk about measuring revenue driving revenue, different topics, make sure you use the hashtag hashtag sprocket talk or hashtag the spot podcast. Remember to give us a You know a like a Fave whatever on your favorite podcast app, hit up at real Julie D. at Doug Davidoff at max Jacob Cohen which by the way, it's kind of sad him not being on this episode, but he'll be back. He'll be back. And of course, you can hit me up as well. I do have the final question. Of course, we want you to keep learning and keep growing and doing some happy hub spotting. But there's something that happened during this episode that I have to ask some question has to be answered before we let everybody go back to the regularly scheduled day and that is that is this. Julie? Why do you drink out of a mason jar?

Juli Durante 37:37
So I'm on the phone a lot. And do you have a smaller glass which all my other glasses are pint sized or smaller means I have to refill my cup too often. And I don't always have meetings in the time in between meetings to do it. So I have my 32 ounce mason jar, and it's hard to knock over

Doug Davidoff 37:55
132 ounce Yeti

Juli Durante 37:58
because I'm cheap.

George Thomas 37:59
And there you go there The hydration Tip of the Week and you also know what, you know budgetary restraints that Julie has for herself in life and we will see you in the next episode.