The Spot EP13: Thought Leadership, Core Insights, and your POV

 

Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, Doug Davidoff, Juli Durante, and George B. Thomas break down their thoughts on thought leadership vs. thought  leadership content, company core insights, your POV (point of view) and much more

Let's buckle up and get into the good stuff.

That Hit The Spot

This week's article is one brought to us by Doug Davidoff because of a conversation started a couple episodes ago.
If you are a thought leader or you are creating thought leadership content for your company, you just might want to tune into this conversation!
 

Move Beyond Thought Leadership Leadership to Break The Sales Barrier Myth

Oh and FYI, this is not just a sales conversation, this is an entire company content and strategy conversation.

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli:@realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.

Audio

About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to maxjacobcohen.com.

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.

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Full Transcript

George Thomas 0:05
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot, education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier. And of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tuck, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes. Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Ready, spot go. And that's right, we're back with another episode of the spot. And today we're really kind of continuing on a conversation that started last episode. So if you have not watched or listened to Episode 12, make sure you kick back into that, go see what we think about as far as SEO, sales content and just a whole bunch of stuff. And why it led into this conversation of really, Doug said something about thought leadership and it should be a piece of content that we create a conversation that we have. And so we're here. So I think probably the best bet maybe potentially is Doug for you to kind of frame succinctly the conversation that you think we're gonna have today. And then we're just gonna dive in. And we're going to start talking about all the thoughts that Julie had maybe prefaced the piece of content that we actually started with, as far as what we're looking at and talking about, and then we'll go from there.

Doug Davidoff 1:44
So I have no idea I've been around here long enough to know that I have no idea what what the conversation we're actually going to have is, I can frame up the the idea and and kind of the point or insight that I wanted to bring, you know, and as it connects to to our conversation, last episode, and actually, I think the episode before that. Everybody talks about thought leadership and everybody strives for thought leadership. The point that I wanted to make, why we brought this up, is thought leadership is actually I think part of the problem thought leadership doesn't actually do what most people think that it does. And I'm sure we'll get into that I'll save some of it. For best, it actually negatively correlates with success if you're looking at it through the lens of making new sales. And I think that if we spend less time thinking about thought leadership, more time thinking about insights, will create better content will have better conversations. And the world will be a better place.

George Thomas 2:47
It's it's interesting because my my immediate response and I'm not gonna dig too deep into this because I want to I want to give Julie Sanne, he is fired up if you

Doug Davidoff 2:57
are there. He's usually the one who says if you are not watching this on the video, you have got to watch us on the video because he's got like 40 minutes of stuff he wants to say in 13 seconds. I've never seen him like this. No, no.

George Thomas 3:07
And I wanted to date with him. I do I my immediate responses. Yes, no, right. Yes. No, no, yes. Like this. There's, there's elements of this. And by the way, I want to preface everybody. We're talking about a piece of content, that it's moved beyond thought leadership, leadership to break the sales barrier myth. The link is in the show notes. I love this conversation around insights. I also love the conversation around thought leadership, though. So Julie, let's just kind of rewind a little bit. You read the article, there are a couple of videos on the page. Heck, there was even a link to a webinar, give us your kind of low down thoughts. Where did your brain go when we started to have this conversation around the sales process? I even lean it into the marketing and sales process and thought leadership and insights and things like that.

Juli Durante 4:02
I think there's this unspoken myth in the the marketing world, the content world, that if you write content, it becomes sales. And that's a myth. Content doesn't sell things, right. Maybe it's a piece of the puzzle. But Doug, in the article, I think he you said that quite well. It seems like the second or third paragraph of the article use of theory, the reality is that they meaning sales, and marketing. For all practical purposes, abandon the early stages of the sales process and push harder and harder to the post intent high inclination to buy late journey stage. And I've actually heard something to that effect quite a lot from sales teams and even from markets. teams who are hyper focused on the demo request, the I once worked with a BDR, who would say, Well, I can get these people on the phone, but I can't pass them to sales yet, because my sales team just wants to lay ups, right? They don't want to work, they don't want to have the conversation. And that is important to me, right? That creating content, whether we're defining it as thought leadership or not, whether we're defining it as insightful or not, but in that vacuum, content doesn't equal sales. Now digging deeper into what is thought leadership, and should we be doing or not doing thought leadership and thought leadership versus insights? I mean, listen, at the end of the day, right? It's, you have to write good content and do good things. And this idea of being a challenger and Doug, is you have said it explicitly teaching the customer why they're wrong, and politely that was in there to explicitly and politely teaching the customer that they're wrong is one of the pillars I think of good content. And you have that like, kind of list of five things that people think the thought leadership is. And the piece that leans into that, like, providing actual insight is sort of at the end. And what I don't think you said in the article, but is important is Yeah, I think marketers tend to think about that at the end, right? Like, well, we're writing content to get readers to build brand awareness to do this, do that and content to do these things? Oh, yeah. And it should be useful. The content should be useful. The content should support your business. And you kind of talked about, you didn't call them content themes. I've been calling them content themes with clients lately. What did you call them? I wrote at my core insights, and kind of building around that. So you're flipping some of like, the SEO content approach and those types of things. And I like that. And I think you did the job of what you're saying people should be doing and that you're creating content that is not, you've, you've politely and explicitly taught me why I'm wrong in that piece. So nicely done.

Doug Davidoff 7:04
My insight piece was, you're gonna

Juli Durante 7:07
say peace was an insight. I just have a question for you, though, which was that you wrote this about 18 months ago. And I would love to know what you would change or update today

George Thomas 7:16
that if you write what you want? That's a great question. I love that question. Yeah, is the Game Dev, George?

Doug Davidoff 7:24
Nothing? Nothing? No, you have to do something, I'd probably dig deeper into why thought leadership content focus on thought leadership is taking companies in the wrong direction, I would emphasize where the mistake is more today than I would have 18 months ago, I read it. And I could have published I mean, I could have written this post today. And it would have been, I get it as relevant and onpoint. and up to date, you know what I would say, actually, you know, it's more important, because I think more and more thought leadership, I think thought leadership blends into the noise. And so and so the noise is, is, you know, the background noise is greater. And so you have to, so the insight has to be even more pointed.

Juli Durante 8:09
Like that, I think it might be helpful if you can consider this podcast, your opportunity to dig in more. As always, can you define for me, when you say thought leadership, what's your definition of thought leadership versus your definition insights.

Doug Davidoff 8:24
So thought leadership, and in fairness, it's not my definition of thought leadership, we did a lot of research to kind of get what is thought leadership, you know, what, what makes the definitions of thought leadership and I should also share, you know, there's a good bit of this that comes from research that was done by CB, um, it was published in the challenger customer, but you know, thought leadership is, is well written content, it delivered from a perspective of authority. It's interesting, it represents a smart or expert perspective. And I would say that the thing that makes thought leadership thought leadership is somebody reads it. And and their takeaway is, well, these guys are really smart. While these guys are really good. While these guys will get it. That's, that's thought leadership insight. And insight has a completely different. So insight fundamentally, is frame breaking. Right? Which which, by the way, if you're delivering an insight, you're not going to get an amen right away. Right. If I hear and I go, yeah. And here's why I hate thought leadership. I can say, hey, right, I've gone to that point. You know, I've been, you know, many times I'm explaining to somebody what they have to do, like they've come to me, they've asked me this question. I say, Well, here's what I have to do. And they go Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we do all the time. And I'm like, No, that's not what you do. That's so not what you do. It's not even funny. And I used to frustrate the, you know, one out of me, but I, you know, I learned we all suffer from a psychological psychological tunnel vision. Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner on this, you won his Nobel Prize. What you see is all there is so when we deliver thought leadership, we take That and we apply that to the world as we know it. That's why we say, Oh, yeah, I get it. That's what we do. What an insight does is it breaks that frame. And by the way, you're delivering an insight when the takeaway is, wow, I might be wrong about that. And I'll say that gets to the fundamental piece thought leadership is about you insights or about them thought leadership. So the takeaway is, wow, you're smart. The people who wrote this are Smart Insights are, wow, I might be wrong about something, well, I need to rethink something, right? And, and so like, to me, the purpose of commercial content is to influence. So forget content that sells, I want to change that too, because your content influence. And if you're delivering thought leadership, if you're focusing on thought leadership, you're you're likely not influencing anywhere near as much as you think you are. And what the data shows is, if you're trying to influence to your favor, thought leadership content that either has no impact, or has a negative impact on making somebody more likely to engage with your company, than to continue on whatever course and speed that they're currently on. That's what the difference is.

George Thomas 11:15
I have a question for you, though. You know, me, you've probably seen me do stuff, at least since 2013 2014. Would you say that the HubSpot and inbounds base that I have been creating thought leadership content,

Doug Davidoff 11:36
I think some of your some of your contents thought leadership and I think some of your contents would meet the point of insight. I also think that some of what you're doing, like, you know, if you look at sprockets off our home, it's a it's a different like, I wouldn't define it as a b2b sale in the context of how we typically think of b2b even though technically it's a you're not looking to get people to change their course and speed, your your content. You're looking for them to improve but they're not they're not mentally, they want you know, they've already you're not getting them to HubSpot, your your content is for people. You know a lot of your content a lot of your HubSpot content is for people that are on HubSpot, and are trying to figure out how to get more from that. And they don't have like their it's a continuous innovation as opposed to a discontinuous innovation. It doesn't have the same psychological risk that's associated with with larger more complex sales, etc. They come in but but I think that you're but I would say your content strategy, I think your best content has insights. I think what makes you different then than a lot of others who are posers is that you do deliverance.

George Thomas 12:51
Okay. Because Because here's here's the internal battle that I was facing is that I think everything has a time and a place and and this article is almost like, yo, don't try to be a thought leader, like do this thing. I think you can be a thought leader, I think you can create thought leader content and have insights in it. I think. And here's the thing I go back to like, a long ago, another lifetime ago, when I was an associate pastor to church, I would create this sermon. And with every sermon that I would create, I would I would have in it, Doug, what I would call a two by four moment. Now what is that that's an insight, it's, it's literally a way of saying, Hey, this is something that we may want to look at in life. And here's a way that we may change. I brought that into the content that I create every day, meaning I'll say like this thing, but then it'll lead to this other thing. You call it insight. We may call it good content, we may call it like, whatever want to call it, but I was like battling because that leadership is actually in my mind how you step out of the background noise. And if you realize that thought leadership has its place in time to rise above the noise, but then you do what you say in your webinar, that thought leadership has to lead into insights, which leads into the engine. And if you're sitting here thinking, Well, I'm just going to create thought leadership and thought leadership is going to be enough then I agree with this article. But if you're saying thought leadership, and you just shouldn't do thought leadership, then I struggle with this article. And by the way, let me just say this everybody who's listening to this episode should read this article should watch both videos should click into the link for the webinar and watch the webinar because I took this, I wrote Doug's funnel all the way as far as I could to see like, I wanted to unpack Doug's brain because there are a ton of great nuggets of information like the real buyers journey in the webinar is dope. Like it's it's just dope and the fact that you have to have This engine built is dope. But what I don't necessarily and I'm waiting, I can't wait to hear what you say, I don't know if I want people to go through this episode and be like, Oh, well, I shouldn't focus on thought leadership, I should just focus on insights.

Doug Davidoff 15:18
I think that there's two things that get conflated here. And you did it a couple times in your last comment. I don't want to conflate being a thought leader with thought leadership content. Okay, so now I would, I would say, don't strive, don't strive to be a thought leader. And in some ways, George, I think what's made you a thought leader is you haven't, you're not doing this to be a thought leader, you're doing this. Because I mean, frankly, if HubSpot went out of business, and there was only one instance of HubSpot left, I'm pretty sure you would still be doing the difference. Because you just have to say it, and begin and that, you know, and so the result is, you know, let's not forget, you can't make yourself a thought leader, other people can make you a thought leader. So right. The issue I have is, you know, we can call it good content, we can call it thought leadership, we can call it we can call it insight. That's the problem with content. In my opinion, content is extraordinarily broad, a scientific research based white paper is good content. That paper is not designed to influence a book report is good, useful content. That's not designed to influence right. So I don't I mean, one of the first things I tell clients is when they write blogs is you're not writing a book report. We're not writing for balance, I make it very clear that if you're writing a post, and no one can disagree with it, then no one can agree with it. And so, you know, like you, Julie, you said earlier, content has to be useful, which I agree with. But what is useful, and so useful, has very different contexts, if I'm reading a book useful is different than if I'm reading something else, right. And so from a commercial context, which by the way, means we're incurring a cost. I look at your all's blog, I have people regularly say about my blog, I can't believe you give that all away for free, right? We give a lot of really valuable stuff away for free. Well, what's the payoff? The payoff is it influences and it's less expensive. It's a lower cost for me to influence through my blog, influence through other means. And so my target is influence. The good news is if you shoot for insight, insight is thought leadership, it meets all the criteria thought leadership, plus, Now does that mean every single post you write has to be, you know, point out where somebody is wrong, where somebody is wrong, where somebody is wrong? No, it doesn't. And I do share, I think in the blog post, but certainly in the videos, thought leadership does drive clicks, which is where we connect to last week's episode.

Okay, I don't mean to call that back out. But where we connect the last week's episode? You know, we talked, I made the point that I thought, you know, this looks to me that was written for SEO. So thought leadership says, you know, we're hitting, what are all the things that people are looking for? Here's one thing I kind of know about change? And if everybody's looking for it, it's probably not the answer, because then it wouldn't be a problem that they'd be looking to change. And so one, one flaw of really good insight is people don't spend a lot of time searching for problems that they don't know about. People don't spend a lot of time thinking about problems that they don't know. Because they don't know them. So they can't, that if you're writing, if you're creating content through the lens of insights, then when you create it, it's not so much that, that the thought leadership leads to the insight is that the genesis of the thought leadership is the insight and your thought leadership content that is good for SEO is good for clicks, which is important bridges to that insight. But but the its origin is going to be stronger from insight. And and by the way, what do we recommend, we recommend that companies go what are three to add most five core insights, like you can't have more than three to five core insights. And, and and be relevant because because a good core insight has a resonating. I when I talk to salespeople, I call it teaching to the ocean. You know, that moment where someone goes, Oh, shit, I've been thinking about this maybe the wrong way. And then what's going to happen by the way, is now I'm going to push back. I'm going to challenge Wait a second, I just got in front of like what you're doing George, you just got confronted with something you're like, Whoa, I mean, I get it a little bit, but I'm gonna push back my right. And now we're in this conversation. And what happens? What I see with people creating content too much is we and I said in sales too, by the way Is that pushback we go, um, I just upset my you know, I've got to make them happy. And here's the thing, people don't change their course or speed. So you know, maybe I have that maybe I have to put a caveat on this. If you're looking to influence change, if you're looking to drive change, and then thought leadership doesn't work, you know, you have to take an insight mindset to it, if you're on the course and speed. And by the way, a lot of people buy a lot of things that they know that they want, and I'm on the course, and I'm on the speed, and I'm going to come across you and I'm gonna buy, you know, top leadership might work there. But we think that thought leadership influences we think that thought leadership makes me more likely to buy from you. And it does, right. And here's the thing, I got to say, the data at a very, very deep level, the data shows, it doesn't influence decisions.

Juli Durante 20:52
So what I feel it's once upon a time, thought leadership was about being insightful. And the idea of thought leadership content has kind of been degraded into any content that's not about us, or our product or solution is for thought leadership. So it's thought leadership content, which is where it becomes the SEO content, or the thing that tries to make everyone happy or get stuck in so many rounds of review with compliance. And we can't mention any partner, because if we mentioned any partner, we have to mention every partner and all of those types of things just have chipped away at it. today. When you're talking about leadership content, Doug, I very much see that and agree with that. I think the spirit of thought leadership isn't necessarily that, what where it's at now. And I think the idea of bringing insight back into that conversation would help a lot of businesses who want to change course, since me, I'm trying to

George Thomas 21:51
figure out, hang on, I'm trying to figure out if like Julie just called me old, because because maybe that's my problem with this whole conversation, right? Because Julie, you hit the nail on the head for me when I think of thought leadership, I think of and Doug, you alluded to this, I think of coming to a topic as in a servant mentality, meaning there's this issue, I'm gonna serve by creating the solution, talking about the solution, but but provide the value that somebody needs to move forward in from a place that they're stuck. And so maybe it's just a fact that I think of thought leadership in a different way than what the modern sales or marketing landscape is actually calling it. What let's realize,

Doug Davidoff 22:40
again, content spans a very broad universe that goes beyond sales and marketing. Okay, and thought leadership. So whether you watch CNN, Fox News, whatever, there are thought leaders there they are subject matter experts, they are they are leading in thought they are not influencing behavior. Right, that. So that is thought leadership. Okay, and I won't I won't disagree. If you look at the thought leadership that works, you'll look at it and go, Oh, yeah, there's an insight there. But But what happens is that the insight is a byproduct. By the way, guys, I haven't created anything new in my entire life. I haven't done anything brand new ever. Because every time I've ever introduced anything, when I introduce our sales process to new sales team, guy comes up and says, Yeah, I've done that. You know, I can write Okay, well, how that works. Oh, it works great. All I did is somehow accidentally in my way, found? What are the what's the path that people took for their best outcomes? And what I find is, yeah, you're gonna like, if you do something 1000 times, you're you're going to, you're going to hit the right recipe. There's a lot of different things that happen. What I'm talking about is how do we increase the probabilities for us? And so I say, hey, instead of the byproduct was you did these things? What if you just purposely focused on identifying the problem before you went to this? Right? What if you just made that as, as the purpose A lot of times, the the reader, the recipient, they come fully prepared, they come fully loaded? There, they've already identified their problem. They're already looking on that, you know, they've already made the decision to change their course or speed. I mean, George, I'll give you one piece of feedback, you know, what I think would make your content more effective. Yeah. If you're more clear on what is the frame breaking insight that you're bringing, and if you and if you group all of the different content, so I'll share with you one challenge I have with your content is there's a lot of it. I think, Connect it to a very meta level. But But what I would say so like you're talking, you know how to do whatever on on HubSpot? Yeah. Well, if you had kind of five key lanes of what someone was trying to do, and, and where you know why they were doing a lot of times it's you're doing the right things but the wrong way, or you're doing it the right way, but you're doing the wrong things. What what are those key connectors, and now you begin to take your pieces of content, and they cluster around those key insight themes, the Generate through that then plugged together and I would be able to get it and I'd come to, like, I always say there's, there's three universes, there's the universe of people who are going to buy from you, there are the universe, people who are going to follow, I love them. Because you know, you can trip and fall on they're going to get Oh my god, I love how he tripped and fell that was like, then there's the universe of people who will never follow you, they will never buy from you. never listen to them, don't pay any attention to them. We don't care about them. They're never going to buy, they're never going to be your father never going to be. But then there's this group in the middle, which is always larger. It's always the largest cohort, those that should but aren't. They shouldn't be following you. They shouldn't be listening to you. They shouldn't be buying from you. But they aren't. Well, why aren't they I'm going to tell you this, the reason that they're not buying from you if they should, has nothing to do with you, before you can get them to buy your solution. You need them to first buy their solution, I'm sorry, buy the solution. You've got to influence how they see the issue before they buy your way. Right? That's why they should but they won't. How do we get them to change course and speed. That's where insight comes in. The people are going to buy from you they're gonna buy from you anyway. And again, you know, I'm not saying don't have just content that meets the criteria of thought leadership. But when you're striving for thought leadership, we get we get a lot of noise when you're striving for insight. And when even when you just say, okay, what's the insight here? Like, even if you just ask that before and after you create content, I guarantee you your content will double in quality? And you do that in a way which i'm not i'm not saying you don't do No, no, no, no,

George Thomas 27:12
no, dude, you don't have to know you said, I accepted it. Here's what's funny is it's not the first time I've heard it, actually, there's a really another smart person on this podcast, Julie, who, when we're doing version two of sprocket talk was like, but what's the connecting factor. And actually, if you go to the website now, and like problems we solve, you literally see that we have bundled our content into creating content, you know, SEO, whatever the problem is that you're trying to solve now you can actually see everything that we've created in that vein or in that lane as you put it. So I totally agree with you. Like we're always looking for ways to make the content better. I think the and by the way, let me just if, if you're watching this listening this go to the show notes, read the article because Doug, you just mentioned the the first sale actually, in your videos in the webinar, you talk about the three sales or sales man that was Southern for a hot Second, the three sales that have to be made, right. And so people need to focus in on that I think there's something magical in the understanding of that. And that tied to the real buyers journey again in the webinar, if you start to let your mind kind of play around with those two pieces, it's it's amazing. I shouldn't be having such a visceral visceral response to the conversation we're having but I am for some reason I don't know right now if it's Yeah,

Juli Durante 28:44
you should see that's why that's the point right? That's what Doug said he's providing an insight and it makes people push back and that's why we're talking about it.

Doug Davidoff 28:54
It makes it an insight make somebody uncomfortable because I got news for you nobody changes if they're not uncomfortable.

George Thomas 28:59
I I totally agree with that. I I honestly believe that it's in the times that we're most uncomfortable in the times of most pain that we actually grow them the most to be honest with you like just from a fundamental standpoint. Okay, I'm gonna shut up Julie I really I that was a good TV show by the way I'm just gonna say I am and that was a good TV show but I'm gonna shut up Julie I really want I want to hear your thoughts because you know that you you always bring a different and kind of exciting like look Duncan I can sit here we can be two RAMs, you know buttheads agree disagree. But I as I edit these and I listened back to like the conversations I always find these Julie's good at like slipping in these nuggets that just kind of like kind of flow through. So what are your thoughts about I live my life

Juli Durante 29:51
slipping in nuggets? It's, it's, first of all, I actually like to take this opportunity to say if you're not watching, please do because I'm wearing my baseball. hot today so I can fit in with the crowd. So first and foremost that. So here's the thing, if you don't have something to say, don't write the content, like that's what it really boils down to. Right? And I think Doug, and I, I think you would agree with this, you kind of tangentially said it, there's a time and a place for different types of content. Not every content piece piece of commercial content will be this hyper insightful thing. But if you are writing to appease everyone, in general, I don't find value in that, in neutral articles are not always the best. Sometimes they're great. There's a time to push them, right. If I want to learn about something from a baseline understanding standpoint, and maybe it's a controversial topic. I appreciate hearing both sides of it, but at the end, right, I need help. Then having learned those both sides, well, how do I wait them? And where do I go from here? And what should I do next? And that's part of the reason why I don't do and I have talked about this where I don't really like documentaries. I don't like documentaries, because they are one sided. Because they don't generally, they don't try to present pros and cons and then sway me, right. So I think you have to be willing to acknowledge, there are other points of view, but you should have one. And when I say good content, that's what I'm thinking about. It's well reasoned, it has a point of view, you might not like it, some people might there's a reaction, there's a conversation to be had. And if we all aspire to do that, right to start a conversation, that's probably a good move for content everywhere. Well, is that how we change the world? Was that one of your promises? Doug?

Doug Davidoff 31:45
Yeah. Well, you know, if we know, we've talked about thought leadership, we talked about so let me give you the five levels, so everyone has it, right. There's general information, there's accepted information, there's thought leadership, there's insights. And then the fifth level is point of view insights. Right? And and and what I would say is, if you're a company creating content, if you're a company creating content and you you have to have that the content has to have a point of view. And and one of the biggest weaknesses I see in content is there's no clear point of view. Now, George, that's something that you've always brought to the table you every, like, you read point of view, right? I mean, that in a good way. Right? And so, and yeah, there's, there's people that are going to, you know, I have to be able to disagree, if it's going to influence, there has to be something that I could disagree with. And, and, and the other element, just that I would piggyback to what to what Julie said, because I agree 100%, traditional thought leadership content has its place, when it's directly connected to an incident to a core insight. And, and so hey, here's the, here's the interesting point, they can connect to, to that deeper piece. And like, by the way, this insight piece, this is one of our core insights, right, and we have, you know, it connects it's spider web on on things that we talked about on pop up. And the funny thing is, we talk to people about something like they might stumble upon this. And it's very ancillary to the we're talking about underlying robots process. They see this and all of a sudden, you know, the follow up conversation we have, it's all about insights. And well, how does, you know, which again, shows the impact of what insights have and how that frames? And by the way, so we talked about revenue operations, and our revenue operations approach is now fundamentally different, because it's seen through the lens on the insight and point of view that we have two revenue operations.

George Thomas 33:40
Yeah, and which could be a whole, that can be a whole episode on itself of like, commoditizing yourself. So. So here's the thing, there's a couple of things that came to my mind when Julie was talking. One was, you can't be all things to all people. Don't be lukewarm, be hot or cold, because then you're gonna, like, get the audience that Doug talked about. And then Doug, you know, again, I'm gonna tell everybody that's watching or listening this they have to read the article, they have to watch the videos, they have to dive into the webinar, because it's just a really good starting place. And and that's where I want to end this because I think having an action oriented way to go after listening to a podcast just makes sense. That's my insight for this episode. Like you just got to know where to go next. Right? And so when I think about this, I think about like, if you're sitting here and listening, and you don't have a point of view, to the thing that you do for others, like that might be a great place to start. The fact that Doug, you said three to five insights and building an understanding and I think you would agree like the whole team, knowing these are our core things like this is how we eat drink, breathe, sleep, these insights is a good one. I would

Doug Davidoff 34:58
say it's okay if you have one, by the way. If you have one really good insight, you could build a billion dollar business on one.

George Thomas 35:05
And then after that it would be layering this type of content here, some thought leadership content here, this how to content here around that insight or insights that you have now, would you agree with that? Or how would you and I guess I'll go, Doug, and then Julie will save, you know, whatever. How would you guys agree with that? Are there other things that you think as far as a starting point after listening to this episode that you would add in? No, I

Doug Davidoff 35:33
agree with that.

Juli Durante 35:33
Yeah, I think if you don't, if you're not able to name, your organization's core insights, after hearing about the concept, starting by defining them is a great takeaway. And then framing other things around that and relating them back.

Doug Davidoff 35:48
I have a caveat. caveat. Sorry, I'm ready if you work to create your first core insight. And it comes very easily that you did not create your first Korean site. It's hard right? inside a true insight is really hard. You know, like inbound marketing was built on a core insight. And now and then 700 companies have come along and said, well, there's this has been a revolution. Except it hasn't been a revolution. It was a manufactured resolution, what everyone forgets, they talk about the inbound story, and it being a great story. And it was it was an amazing story. But one of the core elements that made it an amazing story was there was truth there, the buyer had access to information that historically they never had access to before. I mean, frankly, I think they got the reason why I think inbound got the reason that the buyers are doing it wrong. buyer, if buyers had access to the information 50 years ago, they would have taken it then they just didn't have access to it. buyers have always wanted to control their journey, right. It's always been true. But it was never possible. By the way, the reason that it happened doesn't really matter. It the thing that happened, actually happened, right? And so you've really got to think and it's got to connect to, you know, you have to get out of your product, you might actually only impact the insight indirectly. You've got to allow the world to be bigger than just you your service, you're offering your product. Right and so developing, that's when you can build a billion dollar business on one insight because one true, we basically that's what I'm picking, I looked at them $17 billion business, they built it on one insight, right HubSpot, they built it on one insight and look at what they've done with one single insight but man, it was a powerful, powerful insight.

George Thomas 37:39
I would I would say, you know, as you sit here and we end and I start to talk about you know, following real Julie D on Twitter and at Doug Davidoff and at max Jacob Cohen and at George V. Thomas. And as I tell you to use the hashtag the spot or the spot podcast and and as we tell you to leave a thumbs up or a raving review on your favorite podcast app or to watch us on sprocket talk.com I guess the thing that I would leave them with is what is your core insight? What is that thing? Because if you're have you've listened to this whole episode, and you're like, I don't know, frankly, that scares the crap out of me. A think about that, and we'll see you in the next episode.