The Spot EP20: People Person, Remote Work, Empathy, & Normal


Ready, Spot, Go

In this episode of The Spot, Doug Davidoff, Juli Durante, Max Cohen and, George B. Thomas start by sharing their thoughts on if they are what you might call a people person. We quickly realize this episode is that one that might not match any other Spot podcast episode.

That Hit The Spot

They then transition into working remote, empathy, dogs, cats, and cactuses. But, at the end of the day it steers towards when normal comes back, do we want it to be normal? Buckle up, this one is an amazing transparent and authentic episode.

Until We Spot Again

Make sure you connect with The Spot team. Let us know your thoughts on the shows so far.

  • Juli: @realjulid
  • Doug: @dougdavidoff
  • Max: @maxjacobcohen
  • George: @georgeBThomas

Make sure to use the hashtag #sprockettalk or #thespotpodcast.


About the Expert

The Spot Hosts

Juli Durante is an always-curious marketer interested in the big picture of marketing and sales to help companies drive big revenue. A HubSpot user since 2011, Juli’s deep understanding of inbound marketing campaigns furthers Impulse Creative’s mission of helping businesses grow better.

Doug is the founder and CEO of Imagine Business Development. He’s directly advised more than a dozen companies who have successfully sold for a combined value of more than $1 billion.

For more than 20 years, Doug has been advising small and mid-market companies that are committed to serious growth who want to hear the truth about achieving it. Doug’s worked, firsthand, with more than 1,500 companies (and seen their financial statements), so he knows the difference between what works, and what sounds good and doesn’t work.

Max Cohen started at HubSpot in 2015 as an Implementation Specialist on the Customer Onboarding team after four years on Apple's Business Team.  He joined HubSpot's Learning and Development team as a Product Trainer in 2018 and is currently a Facilitator for HubSpot Foundations, which is HubSpot's new hire onboarding program.  When he's not coaching new HubSpotters on the HubSpot product and the Inbound Methodology, he coaches New England Infamous, a competitive paintball team.  You can learn more about Max and find ways to connect with him by going to

George B. Thomas is an Inbound Marketing Marketer, Video Jedi and HubSpot Certified Trainer with more than 25 years of sales and marketing experience. He leads the Impulse Creative crew in HubSpot certifications with 19 including Inbound, Email, Contextual, and Content Marketing.

George utilizes his love of teaching and learning to help companies find their way to growth via workshops, speaking engagements, business audits, and of course, Sprocket Talk.


Full Transcript

Doug Davidoff 0:00
You're more likely to stay you're more likely to be committed, you're more likely to be fully productive. You're more likely to work at 10 o'clock at night to get something caught up without being asked or being expected of you when that's appreciated.

George Thomas 0:16
Are you a HubSpot user looking to stay up to date with HubSpot, inbound and all the information that will make your job easier and help you and your company grow better? Each week the spot brings you the HubSpot education, ideas and tools that you need to maximize your success. Make Work just a little bit easier. And of course, brighten your day along the way. Listen in as Julie tug, Max and George share their authentic entertaining and valuable conversations with the people who really matter. That's right, you, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for your HubSpot journey heroes.

Welcome to this week's episode of the spot. Let's go ahead and start the episode with ready spot go. And we're back for another episode of the spot. And you'll have to watch the very end of this because there's a clip that happened before we started that I'm going to make sure some segments of that actually show up because the first question that I want to ask today that we're going to help us dive into the conversation that we're going to have is and I'm asking this stuff myself as well. But really I'm I'm curious to the answers that we'll get from the rest of the crew. The question, listeners viewers that I want you to ask yourself and that we're going to ask the host today is are you a people person? By nature? Are you a people person by nature? What say you grew

Juli Durante 1:43
up? Do you want the anthropological context of this? We're all people person by nature. Right?

Unknown Speaker 1:49
Am I like that? Yes.

Juli Durante 1:52
So I can leave it there. What has happened is that we all interpret what being a people person is in different ways. There's a reason why solitary confinement is such a controversial topic. And there is a reason right that we all need some type of human connection at some point. And then it just is a little bit more of a sliding scale. So I wouldn't say I'm not a people, person by nature, but I'm usually quite content in like a one on one setting. Or just spend a lot of time alone and then connect more briefly.

Max Cohen 2:35
Yeah, I'm thinking my, I say I am a people person. Due to my upbringing. I don't know, I don't want to go like too deep into it. But like, when I was growing up, like I didn't have a lot of friends, right. Like I was kind of the the kid that a lot of people made fun of, right. So like growing up through, you know, elementary school all the way to high school, I was kind of just like a little bit of an outcast didn't really have like, a group of friends outside of like the people I played competitive paintball with, right. Like, in my high school, like, I never had like home town friends, right. And like a couple here in there, but like, not a lot. It wasn't till I went to college, where I was just like, I'm not going to live that life again, right. And I completely burst out of my shell. And I think I'm sort of like, overly a people person now and like, I crave human interaction all the time, because I spent the first like, half of my life just being deprived of it. Right. So, you know, I tend to be a little bit more in people's faces and a little little goofier than I need to be sometimes and start a little session of therapy here for myself. But yeah, that's where I'm at.

Doug Davidoff 3:42
towards you. Like you're gonna say some.

George Thomas 3:44
Now I'm waiting for you, Doug. I'm waiting for you.

Doug Davidoff 3:48
So I'm on line is Van Pelt. Kind of people person. peanuts. Ever seen the peanut slice? Yeah, I love mankind. It's people I can't stand. So I love humanity. People drive me a little bit crazy. And I think I was more of what you typically think of as a people person. When I was younger, I think as I've gotten older, I've gotten more analytical. Got a little bit more, you know, I think as I as I naturally worry what other people think. And, and it drove me insane, close to that. And you know, in many ways, and so, I've spent a lot of my adult life. You know, it's none of your business, what other people think of you, you know, the, you know, those types of things. And I've gotten increasingly comfortable with the fact that, you know, at the end of the day, I can only choose to be who I am. And, you know, that's that's what I live in. And I think as I've moved to embrace that I am who I am, and I'm just going to kind of play that game. I think it's made me you know, a little bit more aloof. So the interesting thing is George I like my aunt's. My The short answer to the question, when I saw it is yeah, I think naturally I am a people person. But I think most people would look at me and what they know about me. I think that they would not necessarily think that because of what i think i think we hear people person and we think extrovert and I don't think I don't go. I don't agree with that. But so that's my non answer. Answer. Yes. Using a little bit of cartoon trivia for you. Yeah, there's

George Thomas 5:27
there's there's so many good things that just happen like the fact that Doug used a peanuts characters last name. And we're like, Who? But if he would have just said Linus revenue. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Peanuts, okay. And, and then, I'm sitting here trying not to get depressed because Mac said, the first half of my life, in reference to high school, by the way, and I'm like, Oh, god, I'm old, like so. So there's so many good things that have happened thus far. George,

Doug Davidoff 5:57
what Jordan didn't feel bad that Max was deprived of people in our action in the first half. It was like, he just felt bad that like, high school is less than the first I get it, okay.

Unknown Speaker 6:09
I'm like, Oh, my God,

George Thomas 6:10
like, I'm old. I'm old. But But no, no, actually, I it's funny because I really related to Max's therapy session at the beginning, because I was the only kid that I knew that was on the chess club and played on the football team, which made me a really weird individual that like most people didn't hang out with. And the fact that my high school career lasted till ninth grade, like let's be honest, like me, okay. But But here's the thing. What's funny, and when I started to think about typing this question out and, and, and listening to the answers that you guys would have, I knew that I'd have to answer myself and what's fun, is Doug, I think I'm in a, an alternate universe of you, because I think most people would be like, Man, that dude is that people like he people, people, people, people. And in the right scenarios, yes, people like give me the inbound. Okay, I'll take people all day every day. Energy extrovert.

Doug Davidoff 7:11
Yeah. What is my sequel? Yeah, right.

George Thomas 7:13
Yeah, yeah, but here's the thing. Like, I could be a hermit. Like, I like there are days where I'm like, you know, being a monk wouldn't be bad. Like, I could just go be by myself. Nobody would talk to me. But then, you know, how long would that last? So there is there is definitely this weird side to me of like, I don't necessarily need interaction. But man, when there is interaction, I'm all I'm all about it. Which is interesting. And the reason that we went down this vein, yes, Doug, you opened your mouth. I want I think you're about to say I

Doug Davidoff 7:48
want to I want to do so cuz there's my Angelo has a poem on this. And I forget the specifics of it. And Bernie brown talks about this a lot actually, to it, as you begin, it was you really grasp your journey, one of the things that you realize and this leads to imposter syndrome, at least a lot of you are you are on every you are up everything. And you are alone. Like so you belong nowhere, and you belong everywhere. And like, that's kind of the you know, the paradox of living your life, if you will, and I think I joke around with people and I talk about I you know, that the land of Misfit Toys, and actually my people are, are the misfit toys and and so when I was in high school, and before that, and you know, Max, I played football, I played touch football by myself a couple times, because there was no one else to play with. Try that try throw in a pass to yourself when you're slow, that it's tough. But But, but what was interesting was, you know, a sports editor of my high school newspaper, so I was on buses, I knew everyone on the sports team, I would talk to everybody. I was, you know, I could walk down freaks row and talk to people while they were, you know, maybe doing things that they weren't supposed to be doing. So like, I could be anywhere. But I was never like, I never belonged there per se but I was also the one that you know, kind of did that thing and i and i think that i mean to some degree I think that probably describes the four of us

George Thomas 9:20
it's it's interesting that maybe not maybe not Julie because she was super

Doug Davidoff 9:23

Max Cohen 9:24
Can I can I share something that I've noticed that like I've always like really wondered and getting it's kind of like on, you know, that same realm of like being everywhere, but nowhere at once. And like, maybe this is insignificant, but like, I've always noticed this and thought it was like super interesting. When I would be when we were like when I was like in college that's like mostly where like a ton of my social life or like the highest concentration of like hanging out with groups of people and doing stuff took place. Right? And I would always notice, like if we were walking in a group somewhere, that's an amazing dog. If we were walking in a group somewhere, right, I would like the group would now I actually sort of break into like two or three pods. And I would always notice that like, I was never in one of those pods matching someone's pace, I was always kind of like walking at my own pace. I noticed the same thing when I'm driving. I never drive like with a pot of traffic, people are either passing me or I'm passing other people. Like I'm never matching anyone's speed. And like, I'm not trying to, it's not to me, it doesn't feel like a whole, I marched to the beat of my own drum type thing. And I'm so different above everybody. It's more so like, why aren't I? Like, what's stopping me from naturally kind of like moving with those groups? And it's always something that's like, confused me and made me ponder. I've talked about a lot in therapy, actually. But yeah, I don't know if anyone's ever like, noticed that or that happens to anyone else. But I always happens to me for some reason. It's weird.

Unknown Speaker 10:52
Hang on, hang on.

George Thomas 10:53
We got to pause for one second. Because I want everybody. Yeah, we have to pause the pun there. Anybody who's listening to this? And don't hold your thought, hold your thought. Anybody who's listening to this? No. Max does not have some weird like communication problem where he's in the middle of a sentence. He goes, that's a nice dog. Like that's, that's not a thing. You would have to watch the episode. And realize,

Unknown Speaker 11:18
I thought,

George Thomas 11:19
yeah, there there is a dog on screen that Penny has made a guest appearance. And Julie is literally rocking and burping her dog on this episode of the spot. Henny Penny obviously is a people person, or a people dog, however you want to put that. But I had to say that because I was losing my junk over here because it was like, you know, so I was in high school nice dog.

Juli Durante 11:49
Still, so I'm sorry that Penny is making an appearance on Penny's death, she cannot hear and she got scared. And I am here. So I need to help her. And I need to put her down now because she weighs about 45 pounds.

Doug Davidoff 12:03
Okay, dogs take precedence all the time. You don't have to apologize, dog. She's my sweet little pea dog's mouth when I met her. But I want

George Thomas 12:11
everybody to know the motion that Julie is making right now. I did that with every single one of my children like that is the parental rock that she is like Penny has loved. I'm just gonna say that. Now, Doug, you were getting ready to dive in. So hopefully you didn't lose your thought.

Doug Davidoff 12:29
Yes, I was just gonna piggyback on on Max and, you know, give my experience. I mean, I could sit at pretty much any dinner table in any situation. And the group to the left, I mean, the group to the right of me, the group to the left, right, and, you know, front, right, and etc. They'll break into individual conversations. And one of the things that I've always noticed is I've never, like I, you know, you'll have these two or three people, and they'll be in conversation the entire dinner. I'm never in one of those. Oh, yeah. Did I go in and out of all of them? Right, I'll come in, I'll come out. And you know, and some of it is, you know, I you know, I don't know, you know, it's attached me to my answer to you, Max, is that just, you know, why do you do that? Because that's just, you know, that's kind of who you are. That's why to some degree, why, why? Why do you love being in the trainer role, there's this aspect of, you know, you love to facilitate, there's a breadth to that, if you think about the nature of your interest is just kind of all the things that go in. That didn't make you kind of that facilitator piece. And so, it's a very interesting place to be because you're because you can go anywhere, but do you belong? No.

George Thomas 13:41
So I have thoughts. I have thoughts. But I want Julie, Julie, I want I want you to brain dump on where we're at right now, because this is so fascinating to me. And then I'll circle back around, and I have a couple of things.

Juli Durante 13:55
Oh, brain dump, I don't know, if I have a brain dump on this. I often also find myself in the same situation, I think it's a little bit different for me, kind of opposite from your Mac. I when I was very young, we lived in like a condo community with young families. So I had a lot of really close friends. We moved and we moved to the same town. But very quickly, some of those really core friendships in my life just ended. And it really have a place to rebuild them. It was like kind of middle elementary school at that point. And he never really stepped into a lot of permanent friendships from there. So I think I learned pretty early that friendships aren't necessarily something that need to carry with you forever. So I've always sort of kept people at arm's length, right? You put that protective coating on it and you feel like great, like, I understand that we're gonna be real good friends right now. It doesn't mean in five years, like I'm going to be in your wedding. When you have those friendships. You Take them in, you treat them like the most little precious last ball and like you engage with people in all the right ways. And those are the people that when you're in a group, you keep pace with, right, and it doesn't matter if you haven't taken a walk with them. In five years, you're back in. And I've always thrived more for those moments, then for you like being in the group, anytime there's a group I always feel in between. But I'm also often happy to be in between.

George Thomas 15:30
Yeah, so it's, it's interesting. I'm learning so much about myself during this conversation, but also about you guys. A little unknown Fact is, I actually had moved about 22 times by the age of 15. So Julie, very much like you friends didn't become like this must have thing, like, my wife has a friend who To this day, they are still friends like and it was like when they were four years old to today, I don't have any of that, because I quickly had to make new friends in whatever scenario I found myself in that I was moving into, because my dad was in the military and then went to college and also from a blended family. So went to try to live with this family and go live with that family and all of those things that that happened. So it's interesting to hear you say that and go oh, my God, like, Yes, I there is this like Heisman kind of thing that happens mentally, to human beings. Now, here's the here's the other thing I want to wrap back around and say is Max, I'm curious. If you like facilitating and training because you understand fundamentally that eventually they'll be new people. Because one of the things I love about training is I realized that with onboarding, it's for 60 to 90 days. And eventually I'll get new people that will be coming into the fold, that I'll be able to get to a certain point, and they'll go away, and there'll be new people that have come into the fold. And, and so there's this, there's this level of freshness, this level of almost comfort, which by the way, as I'm talking about, this ties back to the fact that I moved 22 times by the age of 15. And it was always new people. So that's a comfort level for me. Yeah, which which is right. So that's interesting that that's in there. But I want to say one thing that for all four of us that, for me was mind blowing. there's a there's a gentleman, his name is Michael Port. And the reference that I'm going to go into here is from the books deal with the show. And he talks about how many human beings communicators, educators, teachers, by the way, all four of us on this call, they have this weird phenomenon that they can go into which he calls the chameleon effect. And it's this ability to authentically transform into being who you need to be for the set scenario. Right. And so if Julie needs to transform into the, you know, working out fitness person for who she's hanging around with, you can, however, she can come to the table, when she can sit next to the CEO of CEOs, and fit dog, you can go into these different conversations at the dining room table, Max, you can, you know, go and position because we have this ability to become who we need to become in the moment. And what's fun about that, for me is I had always thought, Man, I'm like, there's something wrong with me, because I'm like a perpetrator. Like I'm, I'm faking it till I make it and all of these different places until I read that book, and realized, Oh, my gosh, actually, no, I'm authentically becoming who I need to be to facilitate that conversation or the people that I'm around. Why in God's name, are we talking about this? That's what everybody is thinking right now. They're like, What? Why are we listening to a therapy? So here's the deal. Today's topic, we're talking about working? That's why Yeah, because we can dang it. No, it is because we want to lean into working remotely. So let's switch into now you know us a little bit better. We've gone through this pandemic, some of us had done it before. A lot of us are working remotely. There's this whole scuttlebutt on the Internet of like, how many people don't want to go back to work and how many people do want to go back to work? And so I wanted to kind of bring in, you know, our thoughts on

Unknown Speaker 19:23
working remotely.

George Thomas 19:24
What have you learned? What have you changed? What would you tell people,

Unknown Speaker 19:29
it just

George Thomas 19:30
really a mega brain dump on how you navigate the lack of people physically,

Unknown Speaker 19:38

Juli Durante 19:39
So let's dive into Who wants to go first. haven't worked in an office full time since 2013. I spent two years or so it's like a hybrid worker and then was full time remote after that. So I feel no need to ever go back into an office. Last time. I worked for an extended period of time in your office was December 29. p. And that was when we all went down to HQ at impulse creative for like a work week. And every night, I had to stay at the office late because I can't get anything done with so many people around me anymore. So a year of remote work is like, exactly what I'm here for, like a year, more years. Fantastic. Let's keep going. What has been different for me over the last year is I used to work remotely alone, it was just me. Since everyone is currently remote, pretty much everyone still in New Jersey is no longer just me working from home alone. So I never used to use headphones. When I worked. For example, I was in zoom calls all day. And it was just computer audio like thumbing through, let's do it. Now I have air pods, because I need to have headphones during the day because I am not the only one working or the only one trying to do things. The positive side of them for me is I'm also not the only one home all day with the dog. So while we do a less Penny, sometimes you're on calls for six hours and she needs to go out. And you know, having that health is really nice. I think, for me, the human engagement in our days just needs to be more intentional now. Because you don't like run into someone you have to make time to talk to someone. But it's been like that for for a long time.

George Thomas 21:27
I love the idea of intention, and making yourself reach out or schedule time to spend. And I think being smart about that, I love

Max Cohen 21:37
that. I can go I guess. Um, so I had never worked remotely before this, I didn't even understand or could really fathom the concept of like working from home because every single position I've ever held in my life prior to coming to HubSpot was either like in a retail store or at a camp or something like those were jobs like you absolutely had to show up to do going from from that to being at home all the time. Like it definitely had some ups and downs. And I definitely am still like doing a lot of learning. Like I haven't figured there's a lot I haven't figured out spending a year back here because I think it's like, you're not just like spending a year working remotely, you're spending you're working remotely while the world is like crumbling around us. Right. And there's so much going on. And there's a lot I think to distract you from like meaningful learning, like of this experience, too. But I'd say like the number one thing I learned when I was gone is I learned how to actually be a father, right? When I had my first kid, I was still commuting into Boston. And that was like that that commute was taken an hour and a half every single day on the tail end of my work week and I you know be showing up at 830 leaving at like 530 or six, you know, just because like when I was there, I'd always want to make the most out of it. And you know, I'd end up coming home like after dinner and stuff. And I missed Eliza basically growing up, which was awful. But now like with Audrey and she's here and I get to see Eliza every day like I get to witness them grow up and I also get to understand like the motions of being a day to day father who's here all the time versus like I pretty much was relying on my mother in law, my wife to raise my children I was gone. And that was like a super tough pill to swallow. Right. So I think I've learned a lot about being a dad which has been a really great blessing out of all this just chaos that's happened. But I think in terms of like work though, I think I used to also think that like showing up was like 50% of the job. And now it's like since there isn't that element of being able to like show up anymore. I think the quality of the work that I do I'm focusing on much much more right versus just like you know, the minimal viable product or whatever it is you know, because the way I show up now is like bringing great work to the table and like trying my hardest and like you know showing that I'm still able to function like even though I'm I'm here and doing this job in a different capacity. I also learned a ton about zoom facilitation like I was not a strong facilitator on zoom prior to all this and then luckily I got a year long Crash Course to doing nothing but that so where I was like extremely uncomfortable with that before I don't think we could I can even go back into the classroom after this because I just think zoom is just far more like superior now for for at least the type of training that like we have to do. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's been a lot I'd say like I don't know if we're going on to like the advice part down there but I'd say like for anyone who's you know, producing a product at home right so for me it's like the videos that I do I do the streaming stuff on the side. You know I'm facilitating on zoom all day. I would say like invest in your in your battle station, right like make it so you know when you're actually putting out your your product which is you know, you want to zoom Are you working remotely or like whatever it is it has to do with Make sure you're like you're in a comfortable spot. Make sure you've got everything visible to you and emulate as much of a face to face meeting as you can write and put some work into it. And because that that part's fun, for me, at least, right? And it just makes me more comfortable to be able to do this and not let technology be like a hinderance. But yeah,

Doug Davidoff 25:19
it's been Max, it's let's pretend it's 2022. And we're months past the vaccine is taking hold, are you going back to one front straight?

Max Cohen 25:32
I've been thinking about that a lot. And honestly, man, like I value the time here with my kids so much more that I can't imagine taking that away. You know, and like, I think I do my job better from here than I did when I was like, exhausted on my commute going in there and coming from home late. And so if I can, like, you know, keep delivering it from here, I'm gonna stay here. Now, I think it might be, I think I may have converted to someone who works from home now,

George Thomas 26:02
Max. So I just got, I just got to say, hang on, Doug. You can go, this could be real quick, Max, I just want to say I love you, brother. I love your transparency. I love that you're open to talk about this. I love that. The mentality of hashtag family first. I love that, Doug, go ahead.

Doug Davidoff 26:22
So I've worked remote from from the beginning, I was in sales, then I had an office for a while that were that I ran. Then when we went remote, I actually found I was a much better manager remotely than I was when we were live. And one of the reasons was, I had to communicate intentionally, which meant I stuck my nose into things that I shouldn't have stuck them into less. And oftentimes, I thought that I was communicating something because I was because everybody was there when I said something. So I assumed they all knew it. And I found that that, you know, I had to be more purposeful. So it actually had, I guess that I was I became a much better manager. Because of that I'm going to I'm going to hit a couple of things to take the other side of some things that were set here to hopefully make this more relevant. Because I think Episode 21 is going to be one of these is not like the others. This is our This is our couch episode, George. So first thing is, on one hand, I think we all have to acknowledge that in many ways that is unfair for us to talk about what working remotely means. Because we have worked at companies, and we work at companies right now that have fully and totally embraced and accepted what that means. And there are a lot of places. You know, it's easy to say, you know, do this, do that have this have that you're at a company that doesn't get that. I know one of the big issues, George, I'm gonna sorry, you know, Max, you brought up that's a huge shift is because he said I used to think showing up was half was half the battle. I still think showing up is half the battle. I think what's happened is what showing up means hasn't hasn't been different. And I think you made a great point. Like it's quality, man. I got to put it out there. Well, yeah, you do. But how many companies don't realize that part of the showing up thing was you were there for 12 hours? Yeah, if you think about it, certainly when you bring when you factor in your commute? Well, you can't bring in for 12 hours. Right. So so like I know, people that are working remote that are that are massively exhausted, because they're still expected. There's been no wonder like, you need to bring that quality, because otherwise it's like nothing. But there's still the expectation of the same quantity. And and you know, I think it was the head of Shopify who said this, he said a human has five to six hours of creative energy per day. That's all they have, that you can do something creative five to six hours. My hope, is they they dedicate three and a half to four of those to Shopify. I don't think that was the single best explanation from a leader of work life integration, like you're not here for me. But yeah, we got you got to take care of yourself, you should have your passions. And I think that plugs in really nicely into a remote environment. I'll tell you what, what's scary. I love remote. How would I have felt about it when I was 22 years old, and I just graduated from college. Right? Because by the way, I'm an introvert. And I you know, I see my son My son's adopted to working remotely, he loves it. He's always had a very small group of friends. Now, it's interesting because this whole zoom thing has actually helped him stay in touch in ways that that so so in some ways, he's actually more engaged. He's in a, you know, he's married. So he kind of had that aspect of the social component. But how many people meet the person that becomes their significant other, at work or through some at work activity going out to the bar out Other words, getting invited to this party that that introduced, you know, like, and like, that's a major aspect to our you know that that's that transitionary tribe that I think has to be addressed. The other thing, and like, I think I imagine we do this, okay. But I know it's what I think about constantly. And it was interesting too, because Georgie said, I liked the intentional. And yes, you have to have intent, you have to make sure that you reach out and you check in and you touch him. By the way, I get to say good morning to my team. And they don't feel like I'm being sarcastic when I say that. Whereas when I would remind myself when they walked in the office to say good morning to somebody, because I wasn't actually paying attention to saying good morning, even though I meant it. It didn't sound like that. So like that, right? If you get what I'm saying there, but the thing that's missed is the unintentional interactions. And the magic of the unintentional interactions, the magic of the debate. And I will say like, I mean, if you think about diversity, if you think about inclusion, and if you think about it from a socio economic standpoint, you know, I was a fat Jewish kid from bouie Merrill,

who showed up was looked at as a cocky, you know, what, right, I showed up? Who is this guy to walk in? I remember I was at hertz, I was 22 years old, regional sales manager at hertz acting like I owned the place, who is this person to be coming in like this? But you know, what, cuz it was there, and, and the conversation and wait, oh, we discuss what this guy's doing and works. Wow, look at this guy's numbers. Right? If If we had been purely remote, and I didn't have that opportunity to be there, when the VP was there, to get into a conversation, I don't know that I would have gotten to where I've gotten certainly in a path. But I and I would have gotten here no matter what, because like, that's who I am. That aspect of being able to show that aspect of you're sitting in the lunch room, and no one says anything for 40 minutes. But then someone says something as they're getting up to leave. And that fire. So if I might even fire something like two days later, right? Those those magical moments? Like that's the problem with virtual events. You know, what I think the quality of the content of events has gone up, because they've understood it. But you know, what? events were never about the content anyways. Because what the hell are you gonna say in a 45 minute session to a bunch of people who work there, that's, you know, that's going to have that dramatic of a change in their life. It's the running into people having this, you know, all those accidental pieces. You know, HubSpot just did their partner kickoff, what did I miss, I miss that, you know, they had, they did a good job with their, like, direct message this and you I mean, it was actually really nice, in a sense of what they were doing. But, you know, tripping across somebody, or somebody that ended up sitting down towards you. And I would, I wouldn't be on this show, if we weren't in the same place. And it happened to be we were sitting there, and you said something, and I said, you know, all those things come about, and that's the, that's the piece that like, all the talk about remote, I'm like, I'm so sick of it. It's so like, let's let's, I get from a work standpoint, like if I'm Katie Burke, that's a huge issue. figuring that out. What does that mean? What do our space like? That's a big thing. But all this conversation, remote is the thing, right? Like, that's just everyone trying to feel in right away about, you know, whatever. But there, but there are these elements that you look at, and you say, Okay, let's, you know, let's carry this out. You know, I think that there's there's a lot that needs to be. I mean, Max, I agree with you. We can't really learn a whole lot from this year of remote because it's been a year of remote in pandemic, political, racial and socio economic distress to the level that the last time we saw this was the 1960s. And we wonder why everyone in the 1960s did drugs? Yeah, I'm sorry, am I allowed to say that on the show? So So I think there's a lot out there too. And I think we just kind of have to, like, here's my, here's my number. Here's my piece of advice. Remember what's important, and accepted. I think the best thing I know I'm rambling right now, I think the best thing that's happened is we don't get mad when someone's kid interrupts a call. Sure, let them come in and wait like it's, I get scared. When this is done. We're going to be back to Who's that kid interrupting? It's like, no, that kid, you know why you're on this zoom call because of that kid. Because of that dog. I used to worry that my dog barked in the middle of a call now my dog barks and people are like, No, no, let's listen to darlings. She's more interesting than you are. That's a co host issue. But yeah, so I think you just got it like, let's The biggest thing is all the extraneous hustle cultural. I love that. It's totally cool that we can be having this conversation wearing t shirts and and and and But don't think about that. like they used to. Let's let's focus on what's important and be you know, I always you being you, and that's my that's my advice, whether we're remote or we're all stuck in a cattle car. Yeah,

Max Cohen 35:13
it's like your, your, your personal life and your professional life have almost completely almost completely blended together at this point. Right. And, and kind of going

Doug Davidoff 35:23
well, I think they always have been, I like this whole thing about work life balance and stuff. It's like, you know what, you know, on one hand, yeah, I want there. I want to be there for my kid. And I don't want to miss all those games. But you know what i do you want to miss some of his games. I want my kid to see that I'm so passionate about something, that I'm going to be out of town on something that he thinks is important. And you know what, I want him to be passionate about it too. Because as much as I say, I live for my kids. I don't live for my kids. I I live for me, realizing that I'm a piece of a bigger hole. And I've always believed and put your mask on first. Right? And so I think that what's happened is, like, I think the biggest thing that has happened with remote because we can see where your wife works when she's teaching her English class, while we're talking about this is this mirage of? Well, there's professional, I mean, for me, I've never really had that. But you know, most people, there's Professional Dog. And then there's what? And we're like, oh, wait a second, the we're all the same people. We're all dealing with the same crap. I hope that sticks. I'm scared. It won't. Yeah, I hope that sticks.

Max Cohen 36:30
Yeah. And that's, that's if there's anyone out here who's like a trainer of new hires in any situation. The one thing that I've been doing is like the very first part of my schpeel, when I get on with with new hires is like, Hey, we totally understand that this is not the normal working from home situation like not only are you working from home, you're a caregiver from home, you are watching your kids at home, maybe your pet sitting and sitting at home, there's there's a million different scenarios that we can imagine. And we know it's probably not just you there, what I want everyone to do is just like, don't be afraid when you're when you're when your real life spills into your work life. Like Don't be embarrassed that your dogs barking or that your kid is coming up and grabbing you. If you have an uncle there that's curious and wants to sit in and hear what this whole HubSpot thing is about. He's totally invited, right? Like, for me, it's about getting them as comfortable as they can. Because like, think about how gut wrenching and scary it is to start a new job in the regular world. But then think about how weird it is doing it remotely in the times that we're living in right now. So, for me, the best piece of advice for anyone who's doing like training is just like, you got to make people feel comfortable. Because this is on the other end of the zoom is a very uncomfortable place to be I think, on your first day,

Doug Davidoff 37:47
we had snow, we had snow that school days. And I know Katie brought this up, I have a spot and I commented this on Twitter. And they said, you know, be extra understanding because you know, now not only is, you know, not now the kids are home without even their online classes or whatever. And what's interesting, and I get it, right? I mean, totally, totally legitimate, have that extra piece of empathy. But But you know what, when kids go back to school fully, and you have that snow day, and especially if you think back to the days when we were in the office? Well, that was even more distressful. Because you know, at least at least you're at home now. Yeah. Well, you go back to pre pandemic, you had people that, you know, they couldn't take that day off. And the kid, you know, two hours late would was was a, you know, a travesty. And there's a piece of me that says, because of everything going on right now, we have that understanding, well, guess what? That type of thing is going to be worse when we get back to normal. We need to Are we going to? Are we going to maintain that empathy? To understand the wholeness of people? Like I know, how about will, I know impulse will I know imagine will, you know, we're still I mean, we are so lucky, because we live in such an echo chamber of businesses that really do understand and appreciate the wholeness of the person, not just because they believe in the mission of the wholeness of the person. But they also understand that it's the right thing to like, if I didn't believe in the wholeness of the person. From a selfish business standpoint, you're more likely to stay, you're more likely to be committed, you're more likely to be fully productive, you're more likely to work at 10 o'clock at night to get something caught up without being asked or being expected of you when that's appreciated. Right. But but that is still very much the exception. And I think, you know, it's too easy for people to to think of this in that perfect realm. And that's, you know, yeah, that's what I think about

George Thomas 39:42
Julie. closing thoughts, Julie.

Juli Durante 39:44
You know, I think if nothing else, the last year I hope has helped us see our coworkers clients, partners, vendors as humans, not business humans, and I Dog, that's really what you've hit on in terms of empathy and all those things like, I want to see your baby, I want to see your dog, like, I will allow you to show me your cat. I don't understand it. But by all means, like, I want to see your plan. I want to hear about like how your cactus sprouted a flower, like Tell me everything. And I think that starts for companies, not just in onboarding Mac's to your point, but also like I'm hiring right now in my interview process. I'm like, Oh, you want to show me a picture of your kid? Like, I'm not going to ask for a picture of your kid because I can't ask you if you have kids. But if you want to share that with me, I would love to see your babies like yes, hit me up. I'm here for it. So human human first is a privilege that I'm really happy to have. But I know that it is a privilege and I hope that it's something that more more people are able to experience in our workplace. On that note, hey,

George Thomas 40:53
you know, we're on the socials at real Julie D at Doug Davidoff at max Jacob Cohen at George B. Thomas share picture your dog your cat your kids use hashtag the spot hashtag the spot podcast. Let us know you like this by the way, I'm just gonna close this out by saying thank you for sitting on our couch for the last 30 to 45 minutes and we'll see you in the next episode.

Doug Davidoff 41:23
All right, Max me You gotta look like you got some like back in production crazy shit behind you. That's some funky stuff

Unknown Speaker 41:31

Max Cohen 41:32
This is my my wife's I did like a little work from home setup for her cuz she teaches her English classes at home on Wednesdays. They're doing like a hybrid thing. So she's got to do the whole remote work thing. And I figured it's like a nice little backdrop for my stream and videos I do and stuff. So yeah. Yeah, and the colors are like alternating. So they just like slowly change like through the whole cycle.

Juli Durante 41:57
You've got the winter law changes that

Unknown Speaker 41:59
I do. The other thing I have Hold on.

Unknown Speaker 42:02
Gotta love. I didn't mean to.

Juli Durante 42:05
This is really perfect for this episode.

Max Cohen 42:08
I actually don't know if you can see it, but I've got like a galaxy lamp over here. It shows like the galaxy and it just kind of like spins. I'll get down go into sheets. When she comes down and teaches she just moves all of this stuff and just destroys my background. So like I have to reset it every single time. This way.

Unknown Speaker 42:26
Yeah. Small press. I

Juli Durante 42:28
would argue that maybe your stuff affects her ability to teach and reclaiming her space.

Max Cohen 42:36
Yes, those those lasers in the eyes are not pleasant.